In the 50th episode of The Glen Merzer Show, Glen had the pleasure of chatting with Dr. Michael Klaper, a true icon in the plant-based world. They delved into the state of American healthcare, and Dr. Klaper didn't hold back, grading it a solid D-.
Dr. Klaper has been at the forefront of plant-based medicine for years. Back in the day, he was one of the first doctors to explore how a plant-based diet could reverse disease states. The foundations for nutritional therapy had been laid by Dr. Walter Kempner and Nathan Pritikin, but Dr. Klaper adapted their ideas to a more explicit embrace of the low-fat, whole foods vegan diet.
A high point in his journey was stumbling, more than forty years ago, upon the work of Dr. John McDougall, who was already practicing diet therapy. At the time, these two doctors were lonely voices in the wilderness of American medicine.
Fast forward to today: the American College of Lifestyle Medicine and the Plantrician Project are membership organizations with literally thousands of doctor–and other health professionals–who have followed in the footsteps of Drs. McDougall and Klaper. These doctors all believe in diet therapy, utilize it in their practice of medicine, and reverse diseases that their medical schools had taught them could not be reversed.
Visit Dr. Klaper's website here.
Even though he's critical of the healthcare system, Dr. Klaper has huge respect for the doctors and nurses who work hard every day, especially during crises such as the COVID-19 pandemic. He acknowledges the accomplishments of Western medicine: among them, extraordinary diagnostic tools and delicate, llife-saving surgeries. But he sees these accomplishments as small compensation for the dreadful state of American health. Our population is suffering epidemics of obesity, Type 2 diabetes, and colon cancer that Dr. Klaper traces to the failure of medical schools to teach nutrition and its power to reverse disease.
So, let's take a leaf out of Dr. Klaper's book and start making healthier choices, one plant-based meal at a time. Check out The Glen Merzer Show for more inspiring chats and tips on living a plant-powered life.
Listen to the episode here: Plant Based Icon: Dr. Michael Klaper
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DISCLAIMER: Please understand that the transcript below was provided by a transcription service. It is undoubtedly full of the errors that invariably take place in voice transcriptions. To understand the interview more completely and accurately, please watch it here: Plant Based Icon: Dr. Michael Klaper
Podcast Transcript:
Glen Merzer: Hello and welcome to The Glen Merzer Show. You can find us across all your favorite podcast platforms. You can find us at YouTube. Please remember to subscribe and you can find us at Real Men Eat plants.com. We have a very special guest today, a man I'm honored to call a friend. He is an icon of the plant based movement. He has a website at Doctor klapper.com. Now you have to spell out the word doctor. Doctor Klaper. K - L - A P - E - R.com. Another website at movingmedforward.com that stands for moving Medicine Forward, which he'll tell us about Doctor Klaper. Welcome to the show.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Thank you. Glen, it's great to be with you and your viewers.
Glen Merzer: Now, you really are an icon of the movement, because you were one of the first doctors to practice plant based medicine in America, a generation or a generation and a half before you, was Nathan predicting who wasn't quite on the vegan team? Right. But he was getting close. Is that right?
Dr. Michael Klaper: Yes. That's correct.
Glen Merzer: And was there anyone else in predictions time?
Dr. Michael Klaper: Oh. There was, Doctor Walter Kempner at Duke University, who reverse disease by putting people on a very high carbohydrate diet. Rice. And, we got great results from it. And, those, and their immediate, successors, I guess, would be Doctor John McDougall and the crew that came, you know, immediately just before me. But, no, I'll just be, Doctor Kepner and, Nathan Pritzker were the two main lights that I was aware of during. During the late 50s, early 60s.
Glen Merzer: And now, you mentioned doctor McDougall, but then you said the crew that came just before you. What? What crew was that?
Dr. Michael Klaper: Well, doctor McDougall, wrote his wonderful book for me to go plan and McDougall medicine, 1982, which is just when I was coming into the, into the plant based awareness. He had already been there for a year or so. I really have to, acknowledge that, and I believe he. Well, very clearly, Doctor Esselstyn, was already on the trail. He published his studies not too far after that. But to really be doctor McDougall was. That was the main plan that, kind of blazed a trail for me.
Glen Merzer: And how did you learn about doctor McDougall?
Dr. Michael Klaper: Is it quite by accident? Quite fortuitous. I was, working at a clinic in Central Florida. And one Saturday morning, I was driving home and I heard, I heard this interview on the radio, about this doctor, describing, phenomenon that I never heard about reversing disease. I never thought high blood pressure could be reversed, and plant based diets. And, as one who had become a recently and ethical vegan, basically. Boy, this was music to my ears. I mean, like, like, on the on the scent there. Who is this guy? By the time I got home, I had learned his name. Doctor McDougall. I called the radio station before he left, and, it was, very open and, friendly, and we a nice connection on the phone. And, he was glad to hear another doctor had heard the broadcast, and he sent me his book, and, we became fast friends. There was 1982 three's around there. And, do the math. It was 40 years ago. And, fortunate to count. It was a friend even today.
Glen Merzer: Now, here's the extraordinary thing. Doctor McDougall. And you were two of the first to practice. Really? I know doctor McDougall doesn't love to use the word, but vegan Plant-Based Whole Food Medicine in America. And now it's 41 years later. We have the Plant Tradition project. We have the College of Lifestyle Medicine. We have thousands of doctors who have followed your lead. So that's that's quite an advance. Talk about moving medicine forward. You are to be congratulated on that, sir. You helped spearhead a movement that now has thousands of doctors helping patients.
Dr. Michael Klaper: That's my heart. Good. If I had any small role to play in there, that I still stand on the shoulders of giants, as they say.
Glen Merzer: You had a large role to play in that. Now, we're going to talk about the medical system in America today. But, you know, my mother taught me always say something good about someone before you criticize them. And my mother was a sweet, kind hearted, gentle, caring, if somewhat wacky woman. You notice how I said the good things.
Dr. Michael Klaper: First I caught that, yes.
Glen Merzer: Okay, so let's say let me. I'll start. When I think of the medical system in America today, I one of the first things I think of is during the Covid pandemic. When thousands and thousands of people. And, you know, I make it sound like that's past tense. It isn't quite past tense. But at the worst, when there were thousands and thousands of people dying per week, I would see the national news coverage of doctors and. Importantly, nurses and other health care professionals. And they were working around the clock 24 hour, 48 hour shifts trying to save people. And sometimes they lost their own lives doing so. So there are many tens of thousands of highly dedicated, caring doctors out there who are doing their best. Okay. I said my positive thing. Okay. I'll get. I'll give you your chance. Let's say something positive about the medical community.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Oh, well, I hold them in just the highest regard. They are my family, my teachers, my colleagues, my brethren and sister in in arms, trying to, relieve suffering in this world and extend life and extend the quality, of our to our existence. And indeed, the people who go into the healing professions, in the driving force in their heart is a desire to to heal, to make things better and to see it manifest in so many different ways, all the different medical specialties. But the nurses, the physiotherapists, the, the cleaners in the hospital that, I heard a lovely interview with one of the cleaners sweeps the floor. What do you do? He says, well, I heal people. I'm here to, to help people heal. And. And so anyone who goes in this profession, has a place of reverence in my heart. And the medical profession itself is stunning. As one who's been involved in acute care medicine all the hours I spent in the operating rooms, emergency rooms to see people desperately hurt and injured in deathly ill from sepsis, pulled back from the jaws of death there by dedicated people in brilliant technology who people who thought of these wonderful drugs and devices, bless them all, there's a place in heaven for all of them. And so thank heavens for for Western medicine and all the miracles that it works on a daily basis. And those people who and who actually do the medicine at all hours of the day and night. Again, they are, they are saints among us now, and but they're human and they have their foibles and failings. And I'm not saying they're they're perfect people, but the discipline itself brings out the highest in humanity. And for that reason, I hold it in great reverence.
Glen Merzer: All right. So we have established that you hold the the discipline in great reverence, and there are good people out there working hard to heal people. Having said that, what grade from A to F would you give the medical profession in America today?
Dr. Michael Klaper: Oh, my. When it comes to the completion of the mission, they all hold to to deliver health care, that really leaves people healthier. And again, those are the the highest form of medicine is teaching people how not needed and not the need, the methods of the doctor. I have to give they give us a d-minus. Unfortunately, we we just, don't follow through. We can keep people from dying. But as far as getting them on the road to true health, which, of course, involves what they're eating and how they're living their diet and living their daily lives. We, we've really neglected that area. And so without the follow through, you can, you can be in the lead of the Indianapolis 500. But if you don't make it those last 500 yards over the finish line, you might as well not have run the race there. And too often we do these bypasses need for many procedures. But we then send the patient out, to to fall back into the, the pit of disease there and that, that, foils the, the success of the entire mission there. So we've got we're a long way from the those crucial yards to the finish line there, and that's the major problem.
Glen Merzer: And would you say that that is in large part because doctors in America are trained in disease, but they're not trained in health.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Your your author and poet who comes through with that pithy summary? That's exactly right. We are great. We are great disease hawk boy. We are trained to diagnose, early signs of disease and put a name on it and describe the pathology and, and even come up with some therapies to try and reverse it. But as far as getting to the cause of what really caused the problem, will we pull back there and how to keep it from occurring? We pulled back in there. And so, we're great, disease but and and when I was growing up in the 1950s and 68, there was enough of a boy you could cure that pneumonia if you could cut out that cancer. Mission accomplished. But of course, there's a lot more to healing than that. And, we, we've got a long way to go to finish the picture there.
Glen Merzer: And, so when you went to medical school. You were taught about disease. You were taught about hypertension. You were taught about cardiovascular disease. You were taught about inflammatory conditions. And what were you told was the cause of these conditions?
Dr. Michael Klaper: Well, as you open up, Robinson's, textbook of pathology or sports, his, Textbook of Surgery or Harrison's Textbook of Internal Medicine. There's each of these disease entities. And, after the introductory paragraph, you get to this, section called etiology. But what's the code? What's the source? Where is it come from? And, again and again, I notice then and still notice that you run into, in so many words, the, the basic of whether it was is a cop out. It is not a very scientific or flattering term, but you run into these two concepts of, etiology. Unknown. We don't know the cause. They probably have something to do with genetics. Something to do with the environment. Maybe stress plays a role, but we really don't understand the cause of. And then fill in. There's a blank there. Fill in the disease, whether it's autoimmune disease, clogged arteries, high blood pressure, diabetes. We don't really know them. Genetics probably environment, probably stress. But we really don't know. And and if you're an erstwhile medical student, you have to accept that. Well, the smart guys who wrote the book don't know that. I certainly couldn't know that. And, you know, as the years go by, you know, you get this tacit, condescending, pat on the head, if you will, that the. We don't know the cause, but rest assured, they're the smart scientists in the research lab at NIH and Harvard. 24 hours a day, they're working in those labs, looking a little swirl in those beakers and running those test tubes. And and they're getting close there again.
Glen Merzer: One day, they'll figure out what causes cardiomyopathy.
Dr. Michael Klaper: They'll figure out. And, okay. All right, let me know when you come up with the end of the understanding of it.
Glen Merzer: And as far as you know, are they still saying in medical schools about these diseases? Etiology unknown.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Vast majority. Because that's what keeps the research money going. And that's a little cynical. But if you if we're getting close but we don't know the exact cause, but I we've got a study that may elucidate another mechanism by which this gene turns on this enzyme, which, inhibits this substrate, which, and facilitates this reaction, which changes the membrane potential, which induces this enzyme to the area. And if we can interfere with this one, we might be able to, to stop the process. So give us another $100,000 for the study, and we'll let you know what we find there, but still have a really gotten to the etiology. No they haven't. They're just through like the watchmaker who's just tinkering with the gearing and, and, trying to understand what they're seeing, but they're not understanding the entire picture.
Glen Merzer: As you and I both know, somebody should write a medical textbook that should be in every medical school in America, and it should be called etiology unknown, my ass, because we know the causes of these diseases. So. Let me tell my listeners that Doctor Klapper has a nonprofit called Moving Medicine Forward. Again, you could find it at Moving Med forward.com, and you could also learn about Doctor Klaper and about that, that organization at Doctor Klaper.com. And the point of moving medicine forward is to stop this insanity in which young doctors are not taught about health and not taught the causes of disease, and not taught about the reversibility of disease, which you would think would be important to the medical profession. So without further ado, Doctor Klaper, tell our listeners, tell any young medical students out there, tell anyone with a conscience who might be running a medical school, what is the cause of heart disease and hypertension and, and, inflammatory conditions often, and so many other diseases that are plaguing our population.
Dr. Michael Klaper: In three words. If I heard someone put a gun to my head. Tell us the truth. What is the secret of causing these diseases? It's the food. It's the food.
Glen Merzer: Words that doctor McDougall have has been known to say as well.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Absolutely. I credit him with original for putting together that phrase. The food that people are pouring through their tissues hour after hour, day after day. Simply the wrong fuel for this human body, to run on. And the artery clogging inflammation happens and, and people get these diseases. But again, it's, quite predictable. If you put diesel fuel, put kerosene into a gasoline burning engine. You can't be surprised when black smoke comes out the tailpipe and the spark plugs will kick up with carbon and the engine stops. Wrong fuel. For that engine. And the same thing. We are plant eating hominids like the gorillas. And, no gorilla eats flesh three times a day. If they did, they would develop the same diseases we do. And in the zoos. That's what happens to captive gorillas. They die of clogged arteries and diabetes. But I don't know why.
Glen Merzer: They are feeding them cheeseburgers.
Dr. Michael Klaper: They're feeding them, the some type of chow that has meat in it.
Glen Merzer: They're kidding me. They no meat to gorillas in zoos.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Indeed.
Glen Merzer: Why in the world would they do that?
Dr. Michael Klaper: Got enough protein in a big, strong guy?
Glen Merzer: Yeah. They want to make gorillas big and strong. Your.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Talk about your insanity. Yeah, but that's what gorillas die of. When? When you look at cause of death in gorillas in captivity, it's clogged arteries and diabetes. But out in the wild, they die of their injuries and parasites and trauma and infections, from living out there without medical care. But they don't die of the so-called diseases of civilization. If that's not a lesson, you know, it's hard to overlook that.
Glen Merzer: And, you know, another thing that I find hard to overlook. There's one species that gets atherosclerosis. There's one species. Us indeed. Because every other species knows what to eat. Herbivores like the rabbit. They know not to eat cheeseburgers, so they never do. You have never seen. Have you ever seen a rabbit online at McDonald's? No. They know.
Dr. Michael Klaper: They think of it. I have no.
Glen Merzer: No. They they eat grass and stuff like that.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Indeed.
Glen Merzer: Herbivores don't eat meat, so they don't get atherosclerosis. And carnivores eat meat. And they can't get it because they're designed to eat meat. We are the single species stupid enough to eat like carnivores when we're herbivores. And so we're the only species. I thought we were the only species, but apparently gorillas in captivity in the zoo. We've also managed to torture them and give them heart disease, apparently. I didn't know that, but that is shocking. So. So, you know, this is so easy to figure out, isn't it?
Dr. Michael Klaper: You would think first. You know the word Homo sapiens. Sapiens means wise. If you're saying picture wise as the wise one, Homo sapiens will talk about an unwise thing to do, is to eat the food like mountain lions. We are not mountain lions. We are herbivores, as you say.
Glen Merzer: Now you have a wonderful video that people can find on your website. Yes, I called what I wish I learned in medical school.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Right about now.
Glen Merzer: And you talk in that about the red tide of poisons that go through the system when people foolishly eat animal foods. Could you do for us a five minute version of that, a short version of that, of what happens when people eat meat three times a day? What goes through their system.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Right? Well, I have a slide, the presentation, that shows what your blood looks like if you eat a cheeseburger and a milkshake, how fatty the blood appears and stays away for a good five hours. And during those five hours of fat in the blood, the arteries are injured. Obesity increases, insulin resistance gets worse, inflammation gets worse. And it takes about five hours for that effect to wash out just in time for the next fatty meal. And so if you have bacon and eggs for breakfast and a cheeseburger for lunch and chicken for dinner and ice cream for dessert, you're keeping your blood fatty all day. And so, hour after hour where the arteries are injured or obesity is increasing, diabetes is getting worse. And that's just from from the fat. But also, and I've got a slide of the various specific problems that meat produces, in the human body. Nobody eats raw meat. The very act of cooking the the the meat of grilling, the burger of broiling the steak. Frying the chicken oxidizes the cholesterol in the animal's muscle. So when you bite into that burger, the chicken breast, all this oxidized cholesterol floods your tissues and invades the walls of the arteries and sets up the process of atherosclerotic plaque formation. The very act of cooking the burger, creates cancer causing substance, carcinogens that smear on the stomach wall, giving gastric cancers and on the colon wall giving colon cancers. nu five GC is, sialic acid that only animals make, and it drives inflammation in all the tissues of the body. And our paleo friends are getting themselves a shot a new five GC three times a day. And the, the, all the slaughterhouse bacteria that coat every steak and chop and turkey breast, that, that releases a substance called endotoxin. These bacteria die, and the endotoxin makes the gut leaky. And it opens the door to autoimmune diseases. When you eat meat, the body, the liver responds by putting out a surge of insulin like growth factor one, this very powerful, growth promoting hormone that drives cancer growth throughout the body. The animals in the feedlot are fed grains that are sprayed with herbicides and pesticides that concentrate into the animal's muscle, along with the antibiotics they're fed. So you bite into that burger and all the herbicides and pesticides, the heavy metals and the water, the animals drink all that floods through your tissues. There's nine of these contaminants that flood through the tissues with every meat based meal. So that bacon and breakfast. That burger at lunch. That chicken at dinner. Continually floods the, system with these toxins and, and, and the body reacts the, the consistency of this. If you eat three meals a day over the course of a year, over a thousand times a year, you flooded your tissues, with, with these toxic molecules. So no wonder the arteries get inflamed. They clog up the, the, cancers are initiated. Autoimmune diseases all, announced themselves from the autoimmune disease, the whole cascade of diseases that every doctor faces when they open the waiting room, in their clinic, in the emergency room. And surgical patient who's sitting there, Mr. and Mrs. America, overweight, hypertensive, diabetic, clogged up and inflamed from what they're eating every four hours. It's not that hard to understand, but, who? The doctors want to look at that because, guess what's what's the doctor eating? And the doctors don't know anything about nutrition. And, what happens if I talk to them about nutrition and they get healthy? Am I going to be left without patients? There's so many reasons. Doctors do not want to open that door marked what your patient is eating about nutrition. And but it's all. Too much tragedy, driving so much disease and suffering among our people that we can't let the situation stand any longer. And it's precisely because of podcast like this. The issue there. Should we get enough scientific studies? Plant based diets are healthy for it's education is getting the public to be aware and accepting of plant based nutrition as the key to to reversing these diseases and creating a truly healthy body in a lifetime. The issue of your and sir, and your colleagues, doing these podcasts are the real healers of our society at this time because it gets this information out. So people accept plant based nutrition. Oh, yeah. Sure. I, I don't eat much meat at all anymore. When I'm going plant based, I feel great. Those are the words we want to hear coming out of our, our friends and loved ones lips.
Glen Merzer: Well, the thousands of doctors who have now followed your lead and are practicing plant based medicine, which means that they talk to their patients about what they're eating, and they give them some advice about what they should eat and they recommend plants.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Yes it is. It's really reassuring. And every time I go to a meeting at the Plant Creation Project, you literally see hundreds and hundreds of doctors from around the world, from Indonesia and India and Ireland and, Scotland, Canada, and, and and I'm in awe of the fact that this profound truth, the healing power of plant based, that light has going on in the heads of all these hundreds of different doctors who've each arrived at the same point by their own convoluted health. But the truth.
Glen Merzer: Right. And that's the that's the really crucial point, because they all arrived by their own path. None of them were taught this in medical school. None. They all either read a book, saw a video, heard you speak, and they came to it. And then they realized it. And then they changed their own diet. And then they say, this is working for me. It's going to work for my patients. And correct me if I'm wrong, but there is not a countervailing movement of doctors who have come to the truth that it's eating sausages. That makes you healthy. And they've started sausage based medicine. There isn't an opposing movement, really. Other than a few paleo doctors. Maybe here. In there.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Well, yes. And actually all of what you just said is true. And by and large, you don't. I know of no studies showing that atherosclerotic plaque clogging artery will regress on a meat based diet. Of course, is eating three times a day. Their plaques get spot. Nope. Never seen the study. And I dare say.
Glen Merzer: You and you never will.
Dr. Michael Klaper: But on the plant based diet. Absolutely. It's that's what we expect to happen there. So no, the science is solid there. But but science be darned. There's a lot of folks who are so invested that we're a real man. Eat meat, man. And our caveman ancestors, they buy into this paleo nonsense mythology. And they're advocating and these are usually healthy, leery, healthier guy in their 30s, aggressive kind of doctor. Eat your meat. It's good. Good for you. And they're causing great, great harm. Great damage. So they're going to be around in ten years and 20 years when they're patient, following their meat based diet passes their first bloody stool from their colon cancer. These dogs won't be around for that. They're going to be around when the patient gets their stroke, going to be around to get their autoimmune disease. And now they're off, counting their money from their latest nonsensical book that they've published. But these dogs are closing great harm by pushing these flesh based diets. So, so now there are some doctors pushing it, and, and I view them not as allies, to say the least. They're, they're really, you know, do no harm. Applies to information as well. And I think these folks are, are causing great harm with this misinformation.
Glen Merzer: Well, Doctor Esselstyn did what I think was maybe the best study ever when he did two studies, but one was larger than the other, where he took a couple hundred patients with serious heart disease, many of whom the medical community was basically giving up on saying, you know, make your arrangements. And he put them on it, not just a vegan diet. But a whole food sugar free, oil free, low fat vegan diet, right? A healthy vegan diet. And he reversed the heart disease. And everyone who was compliant with his protocol. Did very well and survived and thrived. And there were a handful, maybe 5% or so, who weren't compliant. And now no luck with that. Those numbers are indisputable. And, it's not a study of hundreds of thousands of people. But mathematically, when you have that many people, couple hundred. And we know how many of them statistically would have died with no intervention. And when ten, 15, 20 years later, they're all doing very well, those who were compliant. That is mathematically highly, significant. My question to you, Doctor Klaper, is if someone had proposed to the to the Cleveland Clinic. I want to do a study. Give me your most severe heart patients. I want to put them on scrambled eggs, bacon and sausages. Do you think that study would have been funded? And do you think anybody would have enrolled in it? And my point is, I think the science is settled. What do you say?
Dr. Michael Klaper: Well, I'm certainly, predisposed to agree with you. Of course. And, as you're saying, why would anybody enroll anybody fun to us? Egg and sausage? Yeah, probably the egg and sludge folks would. But, I can we can see. I know the result. You and I both know them because, going back to the study you, described after Esselstyn, it was profound. He had 198 men, almost 200 men. All of them had severe clogged arteries, and they were end stage disease. They were so clogged up they couldn't even put a stent in these folks. They couldn't even find a place to bypass. So these were end stage vascular folks. 198 of them. He put them on that low fat, plant based diet and followed them for four years. And during those four years, statistically, he had 7.5% per year. During those four years, those 200 men, 60 of them should have had statistically a a major adverse cardiac event, MHC, a major adverse cardiac event. They would have had a heart attack, a stroke, sudden death, angina. Some some bad thing would have happened to the arteries in four years. How many of those expected? 60 had a major adverse event? None. All 198 of these guys. Who may who followed the diet, as you said, and finally escaped any major adverse cardiac event? But those who had angina crushing chest pain when they walk, nine out of ten of them, their angina went away. This is so there was a pill that did that. We would be trillionaires, you know, that vessel still would be very wealthy, man. Now, so the, the profundity of this, of the physiology that was demonstrated here cannot be, as you say, you know, dismiss this. This is such a powerful demonstration, and that in, in given their context, imagine running bacon and eggs and pizza, through these guys arteries, you know, three times a day what that would have done to those statistics. So and so this is a this is a real deal. This is a real reversing, artery disease. Yeah.
Glen Merzer: Now. Doctor Esselstyn. Study is a case of a very clear. Proof, as far as I'm concerned, of the, superiority of the whole food plant based diet. Sometimes I see studies, often I see studies. They are self-reporting studies of 100,000 people reporting what they ate, and some of them claimed to be vegans, and some of them say they're vegetarians and some of them say they're pescatarian, and some of them say they're they're, paleo dieters. And they report what they ate all day long. And you get. You get 100 different interpretations of the results. You get meta studies that incorporate their results, and scientists try to tease out the data, and I think it's all semi pointless. Because first of all, they may not be remembering exactly what they are. Second of all, even the vegans could have been people like eating a junk food vegan diet, and the paleo eaters could have been eating a, more vegetables than the vegans. And, you know, so it's, it's diet of. Of so many people eating in such a confusing way. Trying to remember what they ate. Who knows how much Coca Cola they're drinking and how many donuts they're having. And then you get a headline, oh, paleo diet, almost as good as vegan diet or whatever, or longevity. No different. So whatever. That's not a real study in my book. What do you say?
Dr. Michael Klaper: Oh, absolutely. The nutrition has this anchor chain around it when it comes to scientific proof, where, the folks are testing new pharmaceutical drugs all day. They've got a great model there. You make up an active pill and a placebo pill that looks just like it. Don't tell the researcher or the patients who's getting the pill, the placebo. Then you can do the following. Give them the medicine for the next period of time. Then you can draw some valid conclusions about that. But it doesn't work when it comes to nutrition. And many critics of plant based diets, whatever will stand or their arms fold, will show me 15 double blind, placebo controlled studies showing me that proving that broccoli is healthier than Snickers bars. Well, you're not going to get those studies. People know what they're eating. You can't do a double blind study. People don't eat the same thing month after month, year after year. They, there's so many reasons why these nutrition studies just don't lend themselves to that, gold standard, placebo controlled model. And it's unfair to expect them for nutrition. So that drops down the nutrition researcher into a, an unsatisfactory set of tools. They're one of them. The, these epidemiologic studies will be looking at lots and lots of people who, as you say, they self-report what they're eating, which already we know the is a very inaccurate thing. I can't remember what I had for lunch day before yesterday, let alone, in the past six months or whatever. But very importantly, when they checked, they're vegan. Oh, yes. Well, they went vegan two weeks ago because their diabetes was out of control. And, but but they're counted as the vegans. But when they get there, but again, they're drinking their cola drinks, whatever. And they get their blindness or their complications and see that vegan diet didn't work for them that well. These people went vegan because they already had the disease. You know, they and so there's so many problems with those kind of studies. I look at these studies in there and, and the folks said epic Oxford in England and other in the 70 others. I look at these studies in there and, and the folks said epic Oxford in England and other in the 70 other studies trying to do these properly studies. I give my two credit. But when I read the conclusions, their vegan diets, you know, don't have any survival advantage with this, this disease and that disease. I'm talking about a grain of salt. I tell you, I have a large block of salt over my shoulder. And those ones, because they're just not valid studies. You have to look at specific diseases and, and the, the mechanisms by which you reverses these conditions. And by the way, thank you for calling your viewers attention to my video on my website. Of my presentation, what I wish I learned in medical school about nutrition. We have also just posted, a second companion video called Mechanisms of Disease Reversal Through Plant Based Nutrition. How does a plant based diet actually reverse these diseases? How does it melt away plaque? How's it reverse type two diabetes? Show me the science. And so that is now available on our website. And again it's mechanisms of disease reversal utilizing plant based intuition. Look for it there. If you want a little deeper, dive into the science behind, how these who have plant based diets reverse diseases.
Glen Merzer: All right. We'll take a quick commercial break, and we'll be right back with Doctor Michael Klaper. All right. We are talking with Doctor Michael Klaper and, Doctor Klaper, when you were a resident in anesthesiology, you were in the room when heart patients were getting bypasses. Angioplasty. What did you witness coming out of the arteries of the patients?
Dr. Michael Klaper: Well, I had a good view of what the surgeon was seeing and doing, and I was up at the head of the table looking down into the chest incision, during these coronary artery bypasses and, the surgeon, has to find an open area of the artery above the blockage and make a nick in the artery and plug, the, the vein that they're going to be grafting on to it up above the blockage, and then and then go down below the blockage and find another place to plug the vein into. And inevitably, because we're doing these operations on people with badly clogged arteries, almost every place the surgeon made this decision to the artery wall. They encountered this fibrous plaque of yellow, thick, like congealed oatmeal, that the surgeon would have to, to dissect off the walls there and pull out a chunk of it, like, like a sausage casing, coming out of a sausage casing, if you will. And, the procedures called an end are direct to me. Which is to remove the inner lining of the arteries. And I got a good look at the, what I thought was the cause of the disease. Well, caring for a patient of mine who was scheduled for a four vessel bypass. He had been out with his family, a few days before the surgery. And when he came back, the nurse, he asked me to draw some blood on the man, for a test. And I drew the blood on the fella, and the blood's, floating in. His tube was thick and greasy, white like Elmer's glue. It stuck to the side of the tube when I shook it and went back to the man. When you were out your family, did you eat? Yes. So what did you eat? A cheeseburger and a milkshake. When you said that, I realized what I was looking at was all the fat in the burger. The butter fat and the cheese. The egg yolk in the mayonnaise and the bun. No, all in the fat, in the meat. Of course. All this fat had turned his blood fat in. And and it stays that way for hours. Then so two days later, when we took him to the operating room and saw his chest open and pull that stuff out of his arteries, the light bulb went on, the sirens wailed, and the. And the bells clanged in my head. Doctor, what do you think you're going to see there? What do you think that's coming from? And, science is pretty logical. A moves B, which causes C to, you know, to happen. Well, what people are eating is me. I saw was doing to their liquid blood and I sure saw was doing to their arteries at that point. You know, you can't unring the bell. You know, you can't pretend you don't know what's behind the curtain at that point. And and it all just opened up from there. So much of when I went back to the words the obesity, the diabetes, the clogged arteries and all its stuff. It became so, blatantly obvious that you start seeing it everywhere. Once you see it, you see it everywhere.
Glen Merzer: And yet they say etiology unknown. It's just remarkable. Doctor Klaper, I'm sure somebody must have gotten the idea to take that gunk that was pulled out of the arteries and examine it under a microscope. What would they have found? That it was composed.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Generally, cholesterol, saturated fat, oxidized, cells. It's largely the fat of these people, though. The, the lousy, the fat of the animals these people are eating. If you give these people meat where the cholesterol is radioactively labeled, the radioactive labeled cholesterol wines up in the plaque of the arteries, it's, it's clearly related to the diet that people are eating.
Glen Merzer: So. So can we come up with a theory? Or to explain the fact that we know what it is. We know what that yellow gunk is. We've looked at it under a microscope. And yet in medical school, they say etiology unknown. What are the possible explanations for this willful ignorance?
Dr. Michael Klaper: Indeed. The author, Upton Sinclair, said it's difficult to convince a man of a truth when his paycheck depends upon him not seeing their truth. And, and we have so many researchers, these days, who are on the trail of the cause of heart disease. But it gets to this intellectual minefield of of food, of diet. And the fact is that there are powerful forces looming over the head and hearts of researchers, and their funders. And without getting into conspiracy theories, we can pretend that the, the major economic drivers of so much of medical science, the pharmaceutical industry, the meat industry, the hospital industry, the, the insurance industry, all these people are making tremendous amounts of money off the current system. And many of these people are, are knee deep, stomach deep, if you will, into this, manner of eating, the, what is the researcher who's doing this study actually having for lunch and dinner? If he likes his cheeseburgers and spare ribs, it's going to be hard for him to design a study showing their meat and spare ribs, caused disease of any type. And so, the, the economics, drive so much of the science we're seeing, who's ever paying for the research gets the results that they're paying for. And so, the the games feel fairly tilted. There's no one and there's no money in eating broccoli. And, and that's a there's a real problem. Big broccoli is not sponsoring, these studies, but big meat and dairy are.
Glen Merzer: Yeah. But of course there are trillions of dollars of savings to be had if people would eat the broccoli instead of the cheeseburger.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Exactly.
Glen Merzer: Now, back at the back at the beginning of this broadcast. I express my admiration for the hard working doctors who are on the front lines trying to save lives during Covid. But I want to also give the full picture of that. Now to we we do have a study that was, pretty, important done by BMJ, formerly British Medical Journal, that showed I believe it was 72% reduced risk of, of of death and and, severe Covid. In people on a, quote, plant based diet. Now, I don't know what they meant by plant based. I'm sure it wasn't the Doctor Esselstyn protocol, but it was presumably more plants then. Most people eat less animals than most people. So on a plant based diet, 72% reduced risk of death. And we've had over a million deaths from Covid, so that's over three quarters of a million lives that could have been saved if when Covid hit, we seize the opportunity and we all went on a plant based diet. And if the surgeon general had advised us to do so, and if Anthony Fauci had advised us to do so, and if the CDC director had advised us to do so, and I would see on the news these hard working doctors, some of whom were obese. Working all night long to try to save the obese patients. And then sometimes the obese doctors lost their lives. And I feel very sorry for them. And they were good, well-meaning people. But the obesity in this country is what gave us the terrible results that we got with Covid. Covid was a disease that targeted meat eaters. It targeted. Still targets to this day, the obese and people on a fatty Western diet. So. At what point does the medical community say? Maybe we should do our jobs correctly and teach people how to be healthy so they can stay healthy and survive. What can we all do to teach the medical community now? You are doing more than anyone else with moving medicine forward, but what can we all do to teach the medical community to do their jobs correctly and teach people how to be healthy?
Dr. Michael Klaper: Such an important question, and thank you for mentioning the work we're doing through moving medicine forward. Just for patients who are impatient. Your viewers who may not be, familiar, with, several years ago, when I realized the power of plant based nutrition to reverse diseases and that no one is mentioning this to the young doctors, I'm saying somebody should tell this to the medical students before farmaco sclerosis sets into their brains.
Glen Merzer: And let's repeat that word for word. You coisas farmaco sclerosis.
Dr. Michael Klaper: It's a Klaper ism. I made that word.
Glen Merzer: Let's define that for our listeners.
Dr. Michael Klaper: If something is sclerotic, it's hardened. And farmaco sclerosis is the belief that drugs and surgery are the only treatments for disease in it. And it hardens into the into the, mental framework of physicians as they go through med school. You make your diagnosis, and it's just a matter of what, what drugs. What surgery? You're going to prescribe for the patients. Just farmaco sclerosis. Never thought given to what the patient is eating. And, and the. I thought that this is a reversible disease, and it can be done. It can be reversed by what the patient is eating. Never mentioned, to patients when it's. So it's to the young students when it's so important. So I said somebody ought to be telling the, med students this, the little voice at my shoulder said, how about you, doc? Answer. For the past almost four years, I've been going to the medical schools and giving this lecture around what I wish I had learned in medical school about nutrition. I wish someone had told me this before I waded into the outpatient clinic there, the, etiology unknown in my head. And, so, I'm trying to reach the most directly and the young doctors and where we, hold, monthly seminars and we're, we're trying to keep this fire going, in the minds and hearts of as many young doctors as we can. But to your point, and if someone would like to support our work, by the way, we are a 501 C3 nonprofit organization. If you'd like to help us, we have expenses. Go to moving forward.com as as Glen told you. And see what we're doing and see how you can help. Thank you for letting me get that, that word in, as far as what can patients do? First of all, you're if you're paying if you're watching this video, you are so far ahead of your physicians awareness as far as food goes, that the best thing to do is just do this yourself. Eat a healthy, plant based diet, like give yourself a living, healthy shock these disease. If you have high blood pressure, they'll go down. You have diabetes, your blood sugars will go down. Get yourself in a healthy plant based diet body so you can be a good example to the people around you and your doctor when you go in, for your annual checkup whenever you see them. So first of all, do it yourself, your doctor, the there body repair guys and girls and God love them. If you break your arm, go find a good doctor and get your arm fixed. But as far as asking them about health, we they don't teach us at med school. And so don't ask your doctor. Expect your doctor to give you great guidance there. So it's up to you to bring in a good example of a healthy body. And there are handouts in books. Now go to Doctor Mcdougal's website. And, and what to tell your doctor. You can go to his newsletter. We're going to post a similar article on our Moving Forward website. Just a two page handout to bring to your doctor to, there were studies showing that these are reversible diseases. And and read about yourself. Get on your doctor mcdougal's, mailing list. Get on our mailing list. Follow Doctor Michael Greger and his nutrition facts.org. And so educate yourself. So when you go talk to your doctor and you're going to the doctor is going to need education. If you are on medication for blood pressure, diabetes, those are soon going to be too powerful for you. And you've got to the doctor is going to lower the doses of prescribed these medications. So, be aware of that. And yeah, and if you start showing side effects from your blood pressure pill, your diabetes medicine, call the doctor's office. I'm getting lightheaded when I stand up. Do you think we should be reducing this blood pressure pill? Or my my blood sugars going down to the 50s? I think we should cut back on the insulin, and. And the doctors will learn this way. Where it's. It's an old adage. You. The doctor learns best from their patients. They're our best teachers. So it's your chance to educate your doctor. So, most important thing, do it yourself so you don't have to go to see the doctor in the first place. You know, I never see if I didn't have to see, doctor in the mirror every morning. And I'd never since you were by yourself.
Glen Merzer: That's all good. It. Vice. And do you think it's the case that. Those nutritional studies we were talking about before. A few of them, very good ones, like like the ones Doctor Esselstyn has done. And many of them are very ambiguous, poorly designed studies that come to ambiguous information. And, you know, I would say in general, there are far more studies that show an advantage to the plant to plant based eating than to the other side. So, as you point out, Doctor Gregory's site is full of information about studies that point to the superiority of eating fruits, vegetables, mushrooms, whole grains. So there's plenty of evidence in nutritional studies. But then there are also those other nutritional studies that that are perhaps intentionally cloudy. And there are no studies, that I know of that show definitively that vegans live, let's say, ten years longer than meat eaters. And again, that could be in part because. Some people, as you say, come to the vegan diet when they're 70 and they have heart disease. It could be in part that some people are vegans who eat. Pretzels and donuts and don't have a healthy vegan diet. They're animal rights vegans and they just care about not eating meat. They don't care about being healthy. And it could be just that, you know, no good studies have been done of people on the kind of diet that Doctor Esselstyn enforced, versus any kind of paleo diet. So we don't have that study. Since we don't have. Ay ay ay world of completely clear studies like the assistant studies. Since we have enough vague studies that kind of gives ammunition to the medical schools to say, well, we don't really know. This study here said there's no real difference between people eating plants and people eating meat. This study here showed an advantage to eating a little fish. This study here showed an advantage to low fat dairy, and they could make the case that they're confused. And what I would say is, well, you don't just look at the studies. You look at all the evidence. You look at the evolutionary evidence. You look at comparative anatomy. And you look at the best of the studies, like the Esselstyn study, the ones that really put people on a healthy diet. And then you have solid proof. Indisputable proof that. And you looked at. You look at reversibility of disease. When is anybody reversing any diseases with sausages? You look at the blood pressure studies, nobody's blood pressure goes healthfully down on on hamburger. You know, so when you put all that proof together, then then it's it's indisputable that the diet that we're advocating is the healthiest human diet. But. But they they have enough deniability to not. To not go that far. Do you think that's part of the problem?
Dr. Michael Klaper: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Again, you know, it's it rocks the boats. It makes you such an eye clinic iconoclast to say, stop eating meat, stop eating animal, stop eating dairy. All American foods. Right away, you're, you know, you're funding stops, you get nasty letters from your boss and the public and the patients. It's a scary thing that people don't want to open that box and wade into that bramble patch. But the truth is the truth. And, we are plant eating hominids. Gorillas in the wild do not get diabetes. They don't get clogged arteries. We need to follow their example. And so the. You know. Who are you kidding? The body. And there's no talking the body out of forming plaques in your arteries. If you're damaging them three times a day. The body doesn't care about the stone. He's just cares about the next meal. It's coming in. As long as it's made of plants. You you're you're going to be healthy from that. And, and as you say, it's the definitive treatment for obesity and diabetes. The truth is all around us, but many people just don't want to see it.
Glen Merzer: Now, speaking of obesity, there's a new fad that has overtaken our land, and it's called ozempic. And I think something else called be something like that. Yeah. And these are, as I understand, that pills that were designed for diabetes and people said they started losing weight when they took them. Yep. So tell us if this is a good idea to take.
Dr. Michael Klaper: I think it's a good idea. It's a terrible.
Glen Merzer: Idea. It's a terrible idea. Tell us why.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Oh, my. It's so sad. We humans, Homo sapiens. It would be funny if it weren't so sad and pathetic and wasteful. These, medicines, and most of them are given by injection once a week, to. And it was meant for diabetes. People who, it increases the action of insulin. That's all well and good and but it was instantly. No, these people lost weight, and suddenly the weight loss aspect overshadowed everything you did with the blood sugar. And that's, as you watch the commercials at 6:00 in the evening, that's when people are focusing. But the problem there, there's several problems, with the whole, concept, one the the mechanism, the these drugs make you feel sick. They give you a low grade nausea. They, they, cause, often diarrhea and cramps and, they're really, affecting the, function of the, of the intestinal tract, adversely.
Glen Merzer: A small price to pay to lose weight.
Dr. Michael Klaper: A small price to pay? You would think.
Glen Merzer: So. Americans are saying.
Dr. Michael Klaper: But a but the price is not so small is the cost of $1,000 a month, for a a medicine. There will. Yeah, you'll lose 15, 18 pounds. And then it plateaus. Then you stop losing the weight, but you're still paying $1,000 a month. And when the insurance companies stop paying for your for your drug and you stop taking them drug, what happens? The. Well, all the weight comes back with a vengeance. And you haven't learned anything. Ever learn anything about healthy eating? And what's the long term effect of this, too? These people really have fewer heart attacks and diabetes and strokes. Nobody knows. All the focus is, focusing on is the weight loss. And for this, physiologic, very expensive, temporary, I want to call it a fix, temporary effect when all you really need to do is keep your belly full of whole plant foods, of soups and cells and veggies and and stews and and, chilies and the calorie density, density of whole plant foods is so low, it's mostly fiber and water. There, automatically you're taking in less calories even though you're eating lots of delicious foods. The people would just go on a plant based diet, and none of this would be necessary. And that money can be used to send kids to college to fix the roads, to put internet in everybody's houses. It's such a waste. And there's and the underlying dishonesty of it, if they're not really talking about food, then the then the, you know, the deception, the, the milk, the miscarriage of, this communication is you can eat anything you want, you can order cheeseburgers, you want all the pieces away, you're still going to lose weight. And so people eat all these unhealthy foods, but what's they lose weight? But what's happening to their arteries? What's happening to their colon wall as far as cancer risk, what's happening to their bone marrow? What's happening to their immune system is there. It's all this the meat. No oils in the dairy keep flooding through the tissues. All but I'm losing weight so I can keep eating this. The dishonesty of the that's going to lead these people into these dreadful disease once they had their stroke, you may have lost 15 pounds, but you have to. They will struggle, right at the end of it. Well, how have we helped these patients? Isn't this, dishonesty, deception of the highest level. And it's the betrayal of, of the doctor patient relationship just for a short term effect. So, am I a big fan of these drugs? No. I'm not. Yeah, it.
Glen Merzer: Sounds like you are not.
Dr. Michael Klaper: No, I am not. You will not. You look at my medicine cabinet. You will not see one syringe, with ozempic or will go over again.
Glen Merzer: And I and, you know, there are so many drugs that get approved. And then ten, 15 years later, we hear. Woops. Woops, it causes this or that. I mean, there was vioxx. Those ones for the heart rhythm. It was a weight loss drug and defensemen. Yeah, yeah. Offensive sacks.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Yeah, I call it the big oops. Oops. Yeah. You didn't realize that.
Glen Merzer: They don't know what it does 15, 20 years later.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Exactly. And we're running this big experiment. Yeah. The folks who make the drug go there. They're having a great old. They're laughing all the way to the bank.
Glen Merzer: But you mentioned healthier. You mentioned the important truth that plant foods are full of fiber and water. Fiber. And sometimes you hear that there are three macronutrients fat, carbohydrate and protein. Other lists. And I like to say this, there are five fiber and water. And I'm going to teach you something now, Doctor Klaper, that you probably know. Doctor Glen Merzer. Now, I'm not really a doctor has come up with the six macronutrients. So I will tell you what that is. After we get through the five, we will we will conclude this fascinating interview with Doctor Michael Klapper with a review of the six macronutrients, and which are better obtained with a plant based versus an animal based diet. So let's start with water. Water is important, isn't it? Did you ever see dehydrated patients during your career?
Dr. Michael Klaper: Oh, for sure. And many people have a low grade state of dehydration. They're just walking around with it. They're so used to it. They eat so little. They consume so little water, and no one needs to drink a glass is a day. I think that's way excessive. But one of the beauties of the diet that you and I are advocating, it's full of water to high water content, diet, all the soups and the salads and steamed veggies. And the fruits are full of water. Eating the food you're in. You're drinking a quart of water during the day.
Glen Merzer: And the apple is something like 90% water by weight.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Absolutely.
Glen Merzer: And it's pure, the purest water on the planet. It's plant, purified water.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Absolutely, absolutely.
Glen Merzer: Now you get a little water when you eat meat, because the carcasses that are hanging in the slaughterhouse get rinsed. And so you get what they call the retained water, which is the water used to wash the the animal feces off the slabs of meat. So you have a choice of plant purified water or retained water from the slaughterhouse. I vote for the plant purified water.
Dr. Michael Klaper: I'm with you.
Glen Merzer: And and also, when you eat grains, what do you do? You boil them in water and you get all that water. So when it comes to water, clearly plants. All right, let's go with fiber. Where would you rather get your fiber from? Plants that have it or animals that don't.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Duh.
Glen Merzer: Okay, we're going with it. No, we're going with the plant. And the thing is. Oh, even over your medical career of of decades now. 4 or 5 decades in medicine. Have you seen more and more studies about the benefits of fiber?
Dr. Michael Klaper: Oh, it's hard to open a medical journal these days without seeing some reference to the advantages of a high fiber diet.
Glen Merzer: Yeah, yeah, that was not so much 40 or 50 years ago.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Definitely not.
Glen Merzer: Definitely. We know we know more now. And doctor Will bullshit says that wonderful book Fiber Fueled. We know more and more about the how important fiber is. Never mind. Where do you get your protein? Where do you get your fiber? That's the important question. So water advantage plants. Fiber advantage plants. Where would you rather get your fat from a steak or from a flax seed?
Dr. Michael Klaper: No question. I'll take it from the flaxseeds. They've got far more omega three fats with their anti-inflammatory properties. And they don't have a whole lot of saturated fat, which fans inflammation and can, injure artery walls. And, of course, the fats, saturated fats in the animals, comes in with cholesterol and all the cooked animal muscle proteins and all that pathogenic, marauders that flood the tissues, every meat based meal. So no question, the flaxseeds and their ilk, the chia seeds, hemp seeds, whatever they are, much more benign source of, of omega three fats, without question.
Glen Merzer: All right, that brings us to carbohydrate. Now, the word carbohydrate. Has been misapplied. And people think that carbs make them fat and people say, oh, I'm cutting down on carbs. And let's be clear about. People don't know what they're talking about when they say cut down on cards. If they think if sometimes they're using cards as a synonym for flower. So if you don't want to eat bread and pancakes and cupcakes and pastries, fine bread can be healthy. If it's whole wheat, whole grain bread. But those other things, you know, and and there are better pancakes and worse pancakes, but, you know, nobody's making the case for cupcakes and pastries and croissants. So those are floury foods, and they often contain fat. So people call them carbs, but they're often made with butter, and and and they're made with, oil. And of course, they're made with sugar, which is a car. It's pure carbohydrate and it's very unhealthy. So when we say carbohydrate, we are not talking about eating sugar because that's not healthy. We're not talking about the sugar equivalents. We are talking about. All foods that happen to be high in carbohydrate, like the potato or the sweet potato. Even most vegetables are more carbohydrate than anything else. So. I asked you before, would you rather get your your fiber from a plant or an animal and there's no fiber in animal foods? Would you rather get your carbohydrate from a sweet potato or a steak? And the answer is a sweet potato. Any day there's no carbohydrate even in a steak, right?
Dr. Michael Klaper: There's glycogen in the in the animal's muscle. But even though it's cooked glycogen, it's oxidized glycogen. It's, full of energy. Use advanced location and price. You don't want to eat, cook at all. Muscle no doubt.
Glen Merzer: Yeah. So the healthy carbohydrate, the fuel for the human body, the brain runs on glucose advantage plants.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Absolutely.
Glen Merzer: That brings us to the calling card for animal foods. Protein. They're very big on protein, those paleo people. So where would you rather get your protein from? Plants or animals?
Dr. Michael Klaper: I asked my friend the elephant and the buffalo and the gorilla and the giraffe who grow these magnificently muscular bodies and all plant foods where you get your protein relevant. Well, of course, it's in the it's in the plants growing out of the ground. They're all proteins. All amino acids are made by plants. And there's plenty of them in, in the whole plant based diet that these animals have been able to us from the beans and peas, from chickpeas and lentils and nuts and seeds and whole grains are plenty of protein. If you, are eating 2000 calories in a whole plant, foods you are guaranteed of getting 60, 70, 80g of high grade protein with all the amino acids you get, you can't avoid it. It's in the food. Now, as you're saying, if you're living on, granola bars and Twinkies and cola drinks, yes, you can shortchange yourself a protein. But the key with, which we usually don't say vegan as much as whole food plan B is if you're eating the rice and beans and grains and fruits and veggies, you're going to get the protein you need. It's just not an issue. I can't remember ever writing the diagnosis. Protein deficiency, anybody's, medical chart. So, it's not an issue. Eat your all your foods from the whole plant kingdom, and the protein will take care of itself.
Glen Merzer: Well, not only is the protein more than sufficient on a plant based diet, obviously, legumes are rich in protein, but there's something wrong with animal protein, isn't there?
Dr. Michael Klaper: Indeed. Not friendly for us. Why? When you eat a piece of animal muscle. One of, previously mentioned, the liver responds by putting out a surge of this growth promoting hormone, IGF one that, that promotes cancer growth throughout the body, but also the, the meat itself, the animal muscle, is full of phosphates and sulfates. These form acids in the body, phosphoric acid, sulfuric acid that the kidneys have to neutralize. The bones have to neutralize and and meat full of amino acids that are quickly absorbed after you eat the burger. This is not friendly to the kidney. So all of a sudden, the surge of amino acids from the steak salt flows through the kidneys and forces the kidney filter membranes into this state called hyper filtration. And it is stressful and damaging to the kidney membranes. They thicken in response. And as the months and years go by and these high protein diet, these folks wind up with decreased kidney failure and, decreased kidney function, early kidney failure. We're not carnivorous apes. We are plant eating hominids. The the, the protein in plant fruit in beans and peas, they're absorbed very slowly, and they're much less acidic. And they're really what our bodies were designed to run. So protein, protein, protein, they're concepts really doing us a disservice. As you say, the focus should be on getting your flavor from the whole plant. Foods. Eat plenty of food, eat your hearts and stomachs content, and your, and the protein will take care of itself in a much more benign and gentle manner.
Glen Merzer: And if you eat animal foods three or more times a day, and you're flooding your body with protein source that serve any purpose to have a protein in the body.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Absolutely. We can't store it. And it creates these acids there. And the way out of forces is they kill the kidney, the bones to give up their calcium, to neutralize the acids. It may be a contributing factor to osteoporosis. It's just not the natural diet for for Homo sapiens. We are planting hominids. We need to honor that.
Glen Merzer: All right, so we've gone over. The wood. Fiber. Water. Carbohydrate. Fat. We've. Did we talk about fat?
Dr. Michael Klaper: We talked about that flaxseeds versus animal.
Glen Merzer: Yeah. That's right. We did fat. We did. So we did. We've done them.
Dr. Michael Klaper: All. We've done them all.
Glen Merzer: But there is a six macronutrient that I discovered. Oh no. So the macronutrients are what you need to live what you need to thrive. Yes. So do you know what the six macronutrient is, doctor? The six macronutrient is optimism.
Dr. Michael Klaper: I was going to say.
Glen Merzer: Optimism to live. You need optimism. And what is optimistic about a slaughterhouse? You know what is optimistic? About a slab of dead meat. When you look at a plate of fruits, you get a fruit salad. You see all those colors. That inspires optimism. And when you think about a healthy planet that we could have if we were all eating plant foods instead of animal foods, we think of the forests we could have instead of the barren deserts from chopping down the trees so the so the cows could graze. It's a much more optimistic world. If you eat plants rather than foolishly eat animals. So I say that is the six macronutrient. I'm sticking with it. There are six macronutrients. The six one is optimism and you're better off with plants.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Goodness, a beautiful concept and I'm not going to make fun of it at all. That's there's I think absolutely essential and very visionary. Good for you. And I'm going to borrow that one. We we need a why are we getting out of bed in the morning. What are we doing here on this planet. We're here to love and laugh and learn and feel optimistic about this life. We here.
Glen Merzer: There you go. If I ever get a Wikipedia entry, it'll say Glen Merzer, discoverer of the six macronutrient.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Here, here. I'm all for that.
Glen Merzer: So, Michael, thank you so much for joining us today. Everyone, please go to Doctor Klaper. Spell out Doctor Klaper.com. See his video on what I wish I learned in medical school. Go to moving med forward.com. If you could afford to make a contribution to his 501 C3, please do. Michael. Michael, thank you for joining us today.
Dr. Michael Klaper: Thank you Glen. All the best to you and your wonderful viewers. Bye bye.
Glen Merzer: This has been The Glen Merzer Show, where everyone listening turns vegan, regains their health, and annoys their friends and relatives. Find us on YouTube at The Glen Merzer Show and across all your major podcast platforms. Don't forget to subscribe!