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Wade Van Orman's Shift from Plant-Based to Omnivore

Hi everyone! This week on the Plants Vs Meat Podcast, we're thrilled to bring you the captivating story of Wade Van Orman, the dynamic frontman of indie rock band Moon Buggy and a vibrant part of the Bloomingfoods Market and Deli team. Join us as Wade shares his personal odyssey through the world of food, marked by his deep-rooted passion for local food movements and a lively musical career.

Chicago's Rich Culinary Tapestry Meets Personal Exploration

Wade's culinary adventure started in his hometown of Chicago, a city as famed for its food as it is for its skyscrapers. From a young age, Wade’s taste buds were tantalized by the city's diverse flavors, influenced not just by its meatpacking heritage but also by the exotic dishes his adventurous family loved to explore. This wide array of tastes set Wade up for a life of culinary curiosity, leading him from vegetarianism to a raw vegan lifestyle, and eventually finding his stride with a well-rounded omnivore diet.

Delving Into Health, Ethics, and Our Planet

In a particularly revealing moment on the podcast, Wade reflects on his dietary evolution with candor:

"I remember eating my first taste of meat and I felt like I was getting whatever vitamins I was missing from the raw vegan diet within that meal."

This episode dives deep into the broader implications of our food choices—how they affect our health, our ethical standards, and our planet.

Insights You'll Gain From This Episode:

  • Culinary Roots

How Wade's childhood experiences shaped his approach to food.

  • Health Journey

The personal transformations Wade underwent with each dietary shift.

  • Ethical and Environmental Impact

How Wade reconciles his food choices with his views on animal welfare and sustainability.

  • Community and Culture

Insights from Wade’s experience at a food cooperative, illustrating how community ties influence dietary habits.

A Journey of Dietary Discovery

In this enlightening episode of the Plants Vs Meat podcast, Wade Van Orman shares his dietary journey that spans from veganism to omnivorism. While Wade’s personal narrative showcases a journey of exploration and adaptation, it also provides a platform for discussing the advantages of plant-based diets, as emphasized by our host, Bryan, a staunch advocate for veganism.

Wade's transition away from a plant-based diet raises important questions about the motivations and impacts of such a change. Throughout the conversation, Bryan challenges listeners to consider the health benefits and ethical implications of returning to meat consumption after experiencing the advantages of veganism. This dialogue opens a broader discussion on how societal influences and personal choices intersect, often complicating our food decisions.

The episode serves not only to share Wade’s experiences but also to advocate for the benefits of veganism. Bryan highlights how plant-based diets are not only beneficial for individual health but are also crucial for reducing environmental impacts and improving animal welfare. The conversation invites listeners to reflect on their dietary choices, encouraging them to think critically about the broader consequences of their food habits.

This podcast is an invitation to explore the complexities of dietary choices in a world where health, environment, and ethics are increasingly interconnected. It encourages a thoughtful examination of how each of us can align our eating habits with sustainable practices and ethical considerations, emphasizing the potential of veganism to address many of the critical issues faced by our planet today.

Join us on this thought-provoking journey as Wade and Bryan navigate the challenges and rewards of their dietary choices, offering insights that will inspire you to consider the impact of your own food habits on your health and the world around you.

Join the Conversation

Subscribe to the Plants Vs Meat podcast on your favorite streaming platform today, and stay connected with our ongoing exploration of the complex landscape of food choices.

>Podcast Episode’s Transcript 

Please understand that a transcription service provided the transcript below. It undoubtedly contains errors that invariably take place in voice transcriptions.

Bryan (00:00.786)

Hey everybody, welcome to Plants vs. Meat, the platform for friendly and informative debates between herbivores and carnivores that will give us both a chance to explore their perspectives and their chosen lifestyles. I'm your host, Brian, and joining us today is Wade Van Orman, who leads a local indie rock band, Moon Buggy, and works at a food cooperative, Blooming Foods Market in Delhi.

Wade Van Orman (00:03.758)

of law.

Bryan (00:29.042)

Wade has experimented with a lot of different diets throughout his years, including vegetarian, raw vegan, before settling in on his omnivore diet. And welcome to the show, Wade. Thanks for being here.

Wade Van Orman (00:37.721)

Thanks for having me. Appreciate that.

Bryan (00:42.706)

I just to help set the context for people listening and stuff is you grew up in Chicago. I lived in Chicago for a little while way back when. So that's like the meat, the meatpacking capital of the world. So tell us about growing up in, in Chicago land.

Wade Van Orman (00:56.098)

Yeah, well, the Midwest is definitely a home of meat and potatoes. And of course, I had a lot of that because my parents enjoyed it. And, you know, sometimes I look back and think, how did I survive my childhood with all the... Because I came of age, you know, when, you know, things were becoming boxed, like instant potatoes and TV dinners and those types of things. But I also had a father that was maybe a little more adventurous. And as I mentioned earlier with you,

Bryan (01:01.241)


Bryan (01:09.458)

Right. Yep.

Wade Van Orman (01:24.811)

He would go to little grocery stores in Chicago and buy different exotic foods for us to sample. So I had a kind of a wide array of culinary delicacies that might be asked when I was young. And I think that was good because generally in the Midwest it is meat and potatoes, but I think I was branching out at an early age trying different foods. So that was kind of interesting.

Bryan (01:37.618)

Yeah. Right.

Bryan (01:50.098)

And it's so true because I think I'm 46. I kind of grew up in that same era of Hungry Man dinners. Yeah, absolutely. Exactly. So so I'm right there with you, my friend. And I do remember my grandfather giving me a chocolate covered grasshopper at one point in my life and me trying it and saying, I like the chocolate part, but the grasshopper was too crunchy on that stuff. This was this had to be 40.

Wade Van Orman (01:57.579)

Oh yeah, you remember. Dinty more beef stew and those types of things.

Bryan (02:18.61)

maybe not 40, but 35 years ago or something, a long time ago. So.

Wade Van Orman (02:22.218)

Oh yeah, yeah, for me it's like in the 70s, you know, and I had chocolate covered grasshoppers. They looked like grasshoppers dipped in chocolate, which, you know, was pretty exotic for a 10 -year -old kid, let alone someone who's an adult, but it was a good experience to have that.

Bryan (02:24.722)


Bryan (02:29.33)

Yeah, exactly.

Bryan (02:34.098)

That's right. Good source of protein, but you still have to feed them quite a bit too.

Wade Van Orman (02:42.154)

Yeah, well, we're moving in the direction of insects as our main meal, I think.

Bryan (02:46.578)

That's right, right. Well, it's interesting. So I wanted to kind of unpack the health side of it a little bit with you. So walk us through, you've tried a few of these diets and what have you sort of found that works best for you and why and pros and cons of the ones that you've had to experiment with.

Wade Van Orman (03:05.609)

Well, sure, I mean, I think it was probably in college or after that I really started eating good, eating well, you know, and experimenting with more vegetarian diet, which I did for a number of years. And I found that I was feeling better as a result, you know, generally had more energy, I felt more alert. And then when I was living down in Tennessee, I had the opportunity to go raw vegan, which I recommend, you know, for anyone interested in it. It's not the easiest diet.

Bryan (03:20.784)


Wade Van Orman (03:35.496)

to keep up and a lot of it depends on availability. I was living in the South, so we had things more year round than in the North, for example, as far as farmers markets. But I was doing maybe 75, 80 % raw vegan at that time. And I did that for about a year or so, but I felt like I was kind of missing something in the diet. It is a bit more extreme, I think, for some people, even though I recommend experimenting with it. It may not be for you.

Bryan (03:35.666)

Mm -hmm.

Bryan (03:44.562)


Bryan (03:50.002)


Wade Van Orman (04:05.767)

but I found that it felt good for about a year or so. And then I remember eating my first taste of meat and I felt like I was getting whatever vitamins I was missing from the raw vegan diet within that meal that I had kind of ended the diet with. And I think it was after that I realized that maybe being an omnivore was best for me. Not eating as much meat, but certainly not saying no as well to that diet.

Bryan (04:18.002)


Wade Van Orman (04:36.327)

So I think that that's where my comfort zone is now, is as an office.

Bryan (04:40.339)

Yeah. I do think, I do think like you hit on the right topic in the sense that if you're going to embark on more of those stringent diets, that you have to make sure you're, you're more conscious of the nutritional value in the foods and that, you the body does need the, the B12 and some of those other things. Like I think the, I think that the protein myth is still very rampant throughout America. And so I feel like,

Wade Van Orman (04:54.631)


Wade Van Orman (05:00.263)


Wade Van Orman (05:08.516)


Bryan (05:10.834)

hope people all know that they're listening that you can get your protein from anywhere. That's not the issue. We get too much protein in our diets. It's the fiber for sure. And it's definitely like some of those the B12 or some of those omega threes or something like that. So you do have to be conscious of which foods have certain things in that. Do you think when you were doing that more raw vegan diet, you were conscious of those kinds of things or not really?

Wade Van Orman (05:20.384)

Oh yeah.

Wade Van Orman (05:30.502)


Wade Van Orman (05:36.677)

Well, I think I would have continued it had I had someone kind of coaching me along with it. Because it is a more radical diet and not everybody can sustain it. But I think if I had someone that was kind of at my side saying, you know, why don't you add a little more of this or a little more of that to your diet, I may well have continued with it. But also growing up in the Midwest, I suppose I have a taste or predilection toward certain foods like meat -based foods.

Bryan (05:41.458)

Yeah, yeah.

Wade Van Orman (06:06.436)

And that's more of a cultural thing than anything. It's what you're used to, what your taste buds are used to. So there was a period where I just started missing certain things. Even just a simple hamburger, I suppose, was kind of exotic after getting off that diet. But yeah, I think anyone that's wanting to embark on some more of a intense diet, like a raw vegan, would probably

Bryan (06:13.171)


Bryan (06:32.819)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Wade Van Orman (06:36.004)

be best advised by people that know what nutrients to include.

Bryan (06:42.42)

And it's an interesting thing because I know I definitely offended my mother the other day because I love potato salad and I love my mom's potato salad, but she always forgets that I'm like in the vegan category. And, you know, I was vegetarian for many years and so she could still throw the eggs or the mayo in it. And now I say, well, mom, you put the eggs in it, so I'm not going to eat your potato salad. And she goes, but I made a double bag.

Wade Van Orman (06:49.124)

Oh yeah.

Wade Van Orman (06:54.468)


Bryan (07:08.853)

You're not going to eat a little bit of that. And so, you know, that's.

Wade Van Orman (07:09.315)

Yeah, right. Well, that's interesting you're touching on that, Brian, because a lot of people during that time when I was raw vegan would invite me over, you know, we'd get together maybe at their place, and they'd be like tiptoeing around this diet issue, you know, is it okay if I have such a, and I said, listen, I'm a guest. I will eat whatever you present because I think it's rude to do otherwise, you know. And I don't mind breaking with whatever the diet is at the time.

Bryan (07:24.413)


Bryan (07:31.636)

Right, right, right, yeah.

Wade Van Orman (07:37.986)

when I am a guest at somebody's home because it's important to share a meal, I think, equally with people that are bringing you into their home. But you also touched on something that's interesting because now more than ever the vegan options are astounding. I work at a food cooperative in Bloomington and I see just the increase in vegan mayo over the past few years. It's just phenomenal. So this is never, yeah, I know, here we are.

Bryan (07:42.098)

Mm -hmm.

Bryan (07:53.045)

Yes, yes.

Mm -hmm.

Bryan (08:01.142)

Yes. Hooray!

Wade Van Orman (08:05.154)

This has never, there's never been a better time, I think, to be vegan. And above all, my feeling is experiment with these things. Experiment with diets. I think we live in a blessed capacity in the United States where we've got options food -wise that people in other places don't. So by all means, if someone feels the urge to do vegan or raw vegan, they've got the wherewithal, they've got the options now that we didn't when we were kids.

Bryan (08:08.758)

Yeah, I agree.

Bryan (08:21.322)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Bryan (08:33.909)

Yeah. So mom, if you're listening, get some of that vegan mayo and I'm going to eat some of your potato. I guess I take the opposite stance of like, I don't want to offend people at their table. So I, I sat there and ate the watermelon and then I went and said, mom, I'm going to make myself a peanut butter and jelly sandwich or something like that kind of a thing. Um, you know, just to stick to my core principles of it.

Wade Van Orman (08:53.217)

Right, right. Yeah, right.

Bryan (08:58.869)

But at the same time, I know it's my mom and she'll be slightly offended no matter what I do in some fashion or another. Right. But I love her and she she tries the best. I guess what what do you sort of how did you feel about the health side of it when you were doing the raw vegan or vegetarian or your your current diet now? Like what would you say?

Wade Van Orman (09:26.464)

I think, well, I think that my diet now is probably more balanced than it was when I was raw vegan, you know? And like I said, if I had some more coaching or someone that kind of was suggesting different types of things to include in the diet, I may have continued with it. I guess I just said a lot on omnivore diet because there's less thinking involved in meal prep or meal planning.

where I don't have to think, oh, I ran out of such and such. I've got to go grab it or whatever. So it's just easier. And I feel like I'm also just getting more dense nutrient types of foods that comes with an omnivore diet just by default, because you're adding different things into the diet rather than just specific things that you're taking out.

Bryan (10:02.421)


Bryan (10:19.189)


Wade Van Orman (10:20.031)

So it's kind of a cross section of nutrients that I feel like I'm getting now, which is good. But I also felt pretty good as a vegetarian for a number of years too. So there may come a point where I go back to that.

Bryan (10:31.348)


Bryan (10:35.604)

Well, I know Glenn Merzer introduced us. So thank you, Glenn, for hooking us up to say hi. So you're saying if I can get Glenn to rally with you, you'll come back to the vegan side with me with his guidance and stuff. So Glenn, help wait out here. No, it's interesting because you bring up you bring up a good point. But like what I find in in the standard American diet is is the butter and the dairy is everywhere.

Wade Van Orman (10:38.783)

Yes, thanks Glen.

Wade Van Orman (10:48.926)

You drive a hard bargain.

Wade Van Orman (11:00.816)

Oh, yeah.

Bryan (11:02.164)

Like it's on our rolls, it's in our cookies. It's, it's just everywhere. Or, or for that matter, like I know, um, the Italian cookies that I grew up on with the sprinkles and stuff, like the sprinkles just have so many chemicals and crazy crap in them. So like, you really have to be aware of what you're putting in your body on that front. So I know if you're, it's, it's definitely 10 times easier to not say, Hey, I'm vegan and I'm not going to eat that.

Wade Van Orman (11:13.18)

Oh, yeah.

Wade Van Orman (11:17.956)

Oh yeah.

Wade Van Orman (11:29.437)


Bryan (11:30.355)

because you just go with the flow on that front. But I guess, are you concerned about what you are eating and some of the chemicals or some of the things that are clearly known to cause cancer? And you're putting those in your body as part of some of the stuff that you eat?

Wade Van Orman (11:45.358)

Well, I think by default, working at a food cooperative where our meat is locally sourced and we know where it's coming from. And when I'm eating that, you know, I feel pretty confident that I'm, I'm getting the right, you know, quality food. Um, now when you go out to a restaurant, it's trickier, obviously. So I think that that's really where people need to think about those types of decisions. You know, should I, should I eat this chicken? Should I eat this meat?

Bryan (11:53.875)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Bryan (12:00.755)


Bryan (12:05.523)

Yeah, for sure.

Wade Van Orman (12:14.812)

at a restaurant if I don't know where it's sourced from. Because I think that's important. And we're becoming more aware of that, I think, now in this country with all the options that we have from food choice. So I think that's important for people to realize that, you know, it's important to know where you're getting your meat from. Yeah, and as far as the chemicals, yeah, that comes.

Bryan (12:22.643)

We are.

Bryan (12:30.747)

Mm -hmm.

Bryan (12:36.307)

That's right.

Wade Van Orman (12:40.603)

that's part of that too, but I think again, that's more of like when you're eating out, there's just things you're not aware of. You can control the quality of your food at home. You know where things are sourced from, you know what the ingredients are, and I encourage people to do more cooking at home as a result of that. But I remember 20 some years ago when Bill Moyers did a blood test and he was shocked at all the different chemicals floating around and that was.

Bryan (12:42.513)


Bryan (12:47.859)

Mm -hmm.


Bryan (12:58.898)


Wade Van Orman (13:09.691)

20 plus years ago, I can only imagine what we're carrying around now, you know, just by default of living in this country, you know, and having chemicals pretty much all over, which, you know, in a way are unavoidable. We don't live in...

Bryan (13:14.962)



Yeah. Yeah, it's still boggles my mind. Europe has more or less banned certain things and we still haven't figured that out here in America. But.

Wade Van Orman (13:32.25)

Well, I think a lot of their stuff is a lot more stringently oriented as far as the quality and the source. So you're right. I think we've got a ways to go.

Bryan (13:36.338)


Bryan (13:39.724)


Yeah. Well, I mean, it raises a good point. So like, I hope everybody gets out and votes this year, one side or the other. And then I hope everybody votes with their wallet every chance they get. So.

Wade Van Orman (13:49.818)

Oh, for sure. Yeah. Well, and you're doing that when you're buying food as well with one thing I know about because I work at a cooperative is organic food and locally sourced food. You know, my those are my two things that I really encourage people to investigate. I think that local trumps organic, you know, when you can get as much locally sourced if you got a farmer's market that you can go to.

Bryan (13:57.276)

Mm -hmm.

Bryan (14:06.226)

Mm -hmm.

Bryan (14:10.514)


Bryan (14:14.962)

Mm -hmm.

Bryan (14:19.282)


Wade Van Orman (14:19.609)

get it fresh from the vendor. But if you can't, try to get as much organic as you can. And those prices have come down. I know a lot of people say, oh, well, I can't afford organic. But you can pick your battles. Look at the Dirty Dozen online and go from there. Because I think now more than ever, those options of availability are just increasing.

Bryan (14:32.372)

That's right. Mm -hmm. Yep.

Bryan (14:41.971)

I love it. Well, let's switch gears a little bit and talk about the environment because, you I think, you know, I commend your effort to work at the local, the local food place like that. And, you know, that's, that's what it's all about. Like we have got to get back to our.

our roots to a degree and say like, look, I can't have strawberries all year long. Strawberries are in season locally one time during the year, maybe twice if you're lucky. So what is your thoughts on that sort of standard American diet and the omnivore diet and how it's contributing to climate change? Lay it out for us.

Wade Van Orman (15:19.128)

Well, yeah, it's a big nut to crack, isn't it? Well, I think that because our options are so limitless now, focus on what you can do. I shop at the farmers market. I buy from local vendors. I buy organic as much as possible. Don't be overwhelmed by the choices, but narrow in on what you can get locally, what you can afford, and what you can feed your family.

Bryan (15:23.251)

Mm -hmm.

Bryan (15:35.283)


Wade Van Orman (15:48.311)

because now more than ever, we're kind of blessed to have all these options. But yeah, and also I think investigate what your diet contributes to the environment or doesn't. It may not be realistic for someone to become vegan straight away. They may have to kind of go through a process. I was vegetarian before I was vegan for a little while, and not everybody can make that leap quickly.

Bryan (16:03.771)

Mm -hmm. Yes. Mm -hmm.

Wade Van Orman (16:17.302)

But I think more options are available to people to investigate what's best for them. And so I think now we're living kind of in a golden age of food, really. I mean, I've never seen so many people that are interested in veganism, for example, as I have been in the past few years. It just seems to really taken off. So environmentally, I think that can only be beneficial. And I think that's the direction we need to move in.

Bryan (16:22.795)

That's right.

Bryan (16:34.206)

Mm -hmm.

Bryan (16:41.812)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bryan (16:46.79)

Mm -hmm. Right.

Wade Van Orman (16:50.461)

with the knowledge to make the right decisions about how your diet affects the environment.

Bryan (16:57.332)

Yeah, I guess, and it's interesting because I spoke with some people that are rolling out education programs into the local universities to get the, like it's, I think it was veg default or something like that. Like we just want you to, like vegetables are first. That's the default choice. And then you add the meat on and it costs $3 extra. It's not subtracting the meat from the menu item or whatever it is. You know what I mean? So like, we're going to see that societal shift I agree with.

Wade Van Orman (17:04.858)


Wade Van Orman (17:12.252)


Bryan (17:23.987)

I still think the vegan diet is one of the best ones out there and it's more of a just a lifestyle shift. But what do you think, like the 300 million Americans, like how often should they be eating the meat to help us save the environment? And like, how do we, if we can't end animal agriculture, like how do we shift it to be a super small portion that we can make, you know, our planet survive the next hundred years?

Wade Van Orman (17:52.507)

Well, you touched on one thing, which is, you know, you go to a place, a restaurant, and you know, you want to add meat, it's going to be an extra whatever. I think that's one place to start where it makes it seem more attractive to just stick with a vegetarian or slash vegan diet, as opposed to adding meat because of the cost involved. It gets to an important point, which is what is the cost of meat?

Bryan (17:55.946)



Bryan (18:18.13)

Yeah. Yeah.

Wade Van Orman (18:19.374)

You know, and you're talking about what is it environmentally cost. And I think the more people understand what that is, the more they will kind of phase out that aspect perhaps on their own. And maybe it's because I'm spoiled working at a food cooperative and I see more people experimenting with vegan diets because they have those options readily available. And we, you know, kind of encourage it by, you know,

Bryan (18:23.186)


Bryan (18:32.037)


Wade Van Orman (18:46.713)

the operation that we have in a food co -op. So I would say getting to your question, just phase it out weekly. You know, go one week without meat. You know, and it's like, for example, I don't own a vehicle. I've never owned a vehicle in my whole life. And I tell people, do an experiment. Just don't drive for a week if you can do it. You know, if you work in a little place like I do, you know, Bloomington.

Bryan (18:48.634)

Mm -hmm.

Bryan (18:59.524)


Bryan (19:10.026)


Wade Van Orman (19:15.033)

You don't necessarily need a car to commute. Some people just drive three blocks to go to the grocery store without even thinking about it. The point is that you want to be aware of what you're doing, because it's the awareness that creates the conditions to a healthier lifestyle. So I recommend just saying, OK, I'm not going to eat meat for a week. And I do that myself. And I think that's a good place to start. It doesn't have to be.

Bryan (19:17.342)


That's That's right. That's right. Mm -hmm. Yes. Yeah. That's right. Mm -hmm.

Wade Van Orman (19:42.808)

be a radical change, it can be just a gradual thing. I think we've gotten so inculturated about diet in this country especially that we don't even think about it. This is just what I eat. This is just my standard of living here. And we don't really investigate what are we doing? What are we putting into our food?

Bryan (19:53.702)


Bryan (19:59.314)

Yeah, yeah.

Bryan (20:04.381)

Oh, I agree. I know I was I was eating buffalo chicken sandwiches three, four times a week. You know what I mean? Like I'm addicted to buffalo chicken sandwiches before I went vegan. And and I they are. But but at the same time, like my cholesterol has dropped. I've lost the weight and and stuff. And now I have the buffalo cauliflower or I have buffalo. You know, I still love my buffalo sauce. Don't get me wrong. But but yeah.

Wade Van Orman (20:10.346)


Wade Van Orman (20:18.104)

They're tasty.

Wade Van Orman (20:31.768)

Oh yeah.

Bryan (20:33.329)

So you'll find that. Well, talk to us about the animals. Like I find that most people that have adopted the plant -based lifestyle are doing it for one of those three reasons. It's usually your health or the animals. It's very rarely the environment, but the animals is a big one. Like, you know, what's your thoughts on the animal cruelty and ethical side of this?

Wade Van Orman (20:43.712)


Wade Van Orman (20:57.974)

Well, it's something that you should be aware of. Where does your food come from? If you eat meat, how are the animals treated? What are the conditions? And again, working at a co -op, I have an advantage of knowing that we have locally sourced meats, for example, that a lot of us in the management managers go to the farms themselves to see what the conditions are. So they know, and not everybody can do that as a consumer.

Bryan (21:00.433)

Mm -hmm.

Bryan (21:06.97)


Bryan (21:21.33)

Yeah. Mm -hmm.

Wade Van Orman (21:27.414)

But that's why I think going to a farmer's market is important because a lot of farmer's markets sell meat and that is locally raised and humanely raised hopefully so they get to know what the background is on how the animals are treated. But then there's some people that say, well, it doesn't matter how humanely you treat the animal, they're going to be slaughtered for your food, you know? And I...

Bryan (21:37.874)


Bryan (21:44.594)


Bryan (21:48.626)

That's right, yeah.

Wade Van Orman (21:54.613)

I don't have a response to that other than, well, God bless you for not eating meat. If that's important to you, then I encourage it. But not everybody can take that jump necessarily. That's why I say, stay off for a week and see how you feel. Don't eat meat for a week. But I think I have an advantage of working at a co -op because I know where the local meat comes from. I've got a wonderful farmer's market.

Bryan (21:59.346)


Bryan (22:04.022)


Bryan (22:12.146)

Mm -hmm.

Wade Van Orman (22:21.364)

not too far from me, I can go to that has local meat as well. But I think more people are trying to be aware and conscious of where that's getting sourced from. And that's what I encourage people to investigate. Ask your local vendor or farmer, you know, how is the meat raised? Is it organic feed? You know, are they free range? You know, how is it operated? You know, and I think that's important if you're gonna continue with that diet.

Bryan (22:22.666)

Mm -hmm.

Bryan (22:30.194)


Mm -hmm. Yeah.

I guess. And I agree, like I do think we're we're probably not going to be able to get everybody to go vegan, but I do think either two things are going to happen in the next hundred years. The price of meat is going to be astronomical, so only the rich will be able to afford it. Or we're going to we're going to, you know, figure out the right way to.

build the meat alternatives, I guess, so that, that people.

Wade Van Orman (23:14.259)

Well, that's really hitting the market now too with Beyond Burger Impossible Meat. And even as you are I'm sure aware, you know, the lab grown meat, which is, you know, interesting and supposed to be just as good as, you know, a regular chicken that's raised in a coop or wherever, you know. So, I mean, I think that that's a great idea because then you're dealing with the environment.

Bryan (23:18.13)

Yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Bryan (23:27.986)


Bryan (23:33.714)

Mm -hmm.

That's right. Right.

Wade Van Orman (23:44.243)

in a much more gentle way too, you've got lab grown meat available.

Bryan (23:45.214)


I'm still I'm very on the fence with that one because I think it's still going to take too many chemicals and industrial stuff to grow it that way. Like with the waste products of humans and cows and everything. So I'm still I still struggle with that one. But I guess the the debate that I have in my head. So I went vegan for the for the health and the environment, you know, by far. Right. Like I want to make sure that my great, great grandchildren have a planet to live on. But, you know, the more I

Wade Van Orman (23:59.411)


Wade Van Orman (24:08.446)

Thank you.

Bryan (24:19.378)

speak with animal sanctuary owners or people that have gone vegan for the animals, the more I can identify with them. And it's that question around like, if I was like 1000 % starving and like on my last dying breath, I would probably still be able to kill the animal myself and then eat it if that was my only food source. But like if you, if you said like, Hey, you know,

Wade Van Orman (24:21.904)

Mm -hmm.

Wade Van Orman (24:38.674)

Yeah, right.

Bryan (24:44.882)

That's your cow go kill it and you can have the meat from it. I don't think I could do it I just don't hide I don't think I could actually kill the animal in any way shape or form because I've I know I can go four or five days without food I'm not hungry. I'm not hungry enough to do it. So when it comes to the actual killing piece I don't think I could do it and I think that's something that that Humans as a society pull the wool over our eyes over the actual act of killing the animal Yeah

Wade Van Orman (25:10.992)

I agree completely. In a past life, I was a Buddhist. If you read about the life of the Buddha, one of the conditions for eating meat was that it wasn't slaughtered on your behalf, which I thought was interesting. That's a real moral question to consider and a very advanced question to consider. Where does the meat come from? Of course, there was also a point, there was a schism with the

Bryan (25:14.963)

Yeah. Mm -hmm.

Bryan (25:30.995)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Wade Van Orman (25:40.655)

followers of Buddha where this other monk said, well, I'm gonna grab half of your entourage, half of your devotees, and we're just gonna be vegetarian. And we're just not gonna eat meat. But they couldn't really survive that way because they were begging for alms, right, every morning. And whatever they had in the bowl, they had to eat. That was just the way that you did it as a monk. And so that particular schism basically ended because they couldn't live.

Bryan (25:42.355)

Mm -hmm.

Bryan (25:49.584)


Bryan (26:01.108)

Yeah. Right.

Wade Van Orman (26:09.679)

completely vegetarian like that. There was just no way, you know, 2 ,000 years ago or whatever, that that was gonna be successful. But yeah, I thought it was interesting that, you know, he said that if it's killed for you, don't eat it, that's not good, you know, bad karma. But we're so divorced from our source now that it's interesting how, you know, maybe we put all sorts of...

Bryan (26:11.473)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Really interesting.

Bryan (26:26.131)

Yeah. Yeah.

Wade Van Orman (26:39.311)

maybe logical conundrums about how do I get out of this? I love animals, but I'm eating animals. And that's a difficult question for everyone to answer for themselves.

Bryan (26:42.163)

That's right. Yeah.

Bryan (26:54.035)

And it's and it is that speciesism kind of thing, right? That we could never fathom killing or eating a cat or a dog, but a cow or a pig, no problem. You know, so it's yeah.

Wade Van Orman (26:59.31)

Yeah. Right. Well, yeah, again, I think that's the culture that we grow up in. You know, I mentioned earlier about insects that might be like the final frontier in protein and, you know, the future of food, because we see in parts of Southeast Asia that's a delicacy to eat insects. And it doesn't cost a lot to harvest and...

Bryan (27:15.027)

Mm -hmm.

Bryan (27:19.825)


Bryan (27:24.019)

For sure, for sure.

Mm -hmm.

Wade Van Orman (27:27.63)

You know, they do provide dense protein, so we just have to get over our, you know, kind of, ug factor with eating that type of thing. But that could be the next frontier.

Bryan (27:30.547)


Bryan (27:51.481)

I guess I look at it as it's secondhand beans. It's secondhand grain You know because somebody else had to eat it and convert it before you get it So yeah, I agree this this has been awesome way getting to chat with you and unpack this I think we hit on a lot of really important topics and I appreciate you being so open and willing to have this friendly conversation with me

Wade Van Orman (28:05.311)


Wade Van Orman (28:13.709)

Definitely, it was my pleasure.

Bryan (28:16.185)

I really appreciate everybody listening. That is all the time we have for this episode of Plants vs. Meat. We need more guests like Wade and others to come on the show. So if you're interested in hanging out with me for a few minutes, please comment below on the post here and get in touch with us. You can check us out at Plants vs. Meat podcast and we really appreciate you Wade sharing and sharing your insights and experiences with our community and we'll talk soon. Thanks everybody.

Wade Van Orman (28:45.172)

It was a lot of fun. Take care.


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