Forging the Unbreakable Mind: A Psychologist's Guide to Plant-Powered Mental Toughness

Stop Fearing Change: True Masculinity is Found in Courage and Compassion

The journey to a plant-based life for men is often less about physical strength and more about mental toughness. Despite undeniable proof that a plant-powered diet fuels peak performance (from ultra-marathoners to world-class bodybuilders) a deep-seated social conditioning persists, wrongly linking masculinity to meat consumption. This psychological barrier is the real challenge. On a recent episode of the Real Men Eat Plants Podcast, psychologist, vegan educator, and author Dr. Angela Crawford unpacked this mental game, offering essential strategies for men to forge an unbreakable mindset.

Dr. Crawford’s journey, detailed in her book The Vegan Transformation: A Journey to Heal Yourself and the World, shows that the pivot to plants is a profound emotional, psychological, and even spiritual experience.

The Strong Why: Your Foundation for Sustainable Strength

When faced with social pressure, from family gatherings to the locker room, your willpower will eventually fail. That's why your lifestyle change must be built on a foundation stronger than a single craving: your Strong Why.

Dr. Crawford emphasizes that a deep and regularly revisited motivation is the bedrock of maintenance. Whether your "why" is to live long and strong like 102-year-old vegan runner Mike Fremont, to fight heart disease, or to align your life with compassionate ethics, this reason must be clear. When temptation or doubt hits, the ability to reconnect with this core purpose acts as an immediate mental defense. This is true discipline.

Challenging the Stigma of 'The Caveman Diet'

The co-host, Geoff Palmer, passionately highlighted a crucial point: the biggest obstacle for men is the fear of being seen as "weak" or ostracized by their peers. Dr. Crawford notes that commercial food systems have spent decades ingraining a false, emotional ethos, making men feel like they are betraying a cultural structure by choosing plants.

It’s time to flip the script. If traditional masculine traits include courage, conviction, and standing up for your beliefs, then choosing a plant-based life is the ultimate act of bravery. It takes real courage to break away from the 'cult of food' and the social norms dictated by corporate marketing. True strength isn't caving to the pack; it’s leading the way towards a healthier, more ethical path.

From Awakening to Leadership: The Psychological Benefit

Many people feel a sense of isolation, a 'burden of knowing', when they awaken to the realities of animal agriculture and its health implications. Dr. Crawford reframes this feeling of being an outsider as a step into leadership.

Furthermore, aligning your plate with your deepest values yields unexpected psychological rewards. As one person interviewed for her book put it, “I feel more spiritual now that I don't have to take a life to live my life.” This powerful connection to self, spirit, and all sentient beings results in a feeling of inner lightness, clarity, and deepened intuition. The Vegan Transformation isn't just a diet change; it is a full-spectrum empowerment over your health, your purpose, and your future.

To sustain this mindset, Dr. Crawford suggests proactive preparation. This means establishing a routine: regular meal planning, consistent shopping, exercise, and surrounding yourself with a supportive community. An "unbreakable mind" is one that is prepared for the challenge, not just one that relies on fleeting motivation.

Ready to forge your unbreakable mindset?

• Action Step: Define your Strong Why and write it down.

• Resource: Find the full conversation with Dr. Angela Crawford on the latest episode of Real Men Eat Plants and check out her book, The Vegan Transformation.

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Episode’s Transcript

Please understand that a transcription service provided the transcript below. It undoubtedly contains errors that invariably take place in voice transcriptions.

Bryan (00:01)

Hey everybody. Welcome to the real men eat plants podcast. I'm your host Bryan. And today we're trying to really ask the question like, what does it truly mean to be unbreakable? And I don't mean like physically in the gym, but like mentally in every challenge that life throws at you. I want us to figure out ways that we can face down some immense obstacles. I want us to redefine our limits and I'm hoping we can forge a life of of purpose and undeniable strength.

So welcome back everybody to the podcast where we crush old notions of masculinity and prove that the ultimate power, health and vitality from a come from a conscious plant based foundation. Again, I'm your host Bryan. And joining me today is the man who's always here hanging out with us, the man behind the clean machine, someone who definitely lives and breathes the plant based performance. Welcome back, Geoff Palmer.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (00:51)

Thanks for having me. Always a pleasure to be with

Bryan (00:54)

Love it. Geoff, know you and I are totally fired up for today's guests cause she embodies a unique blend of some scientific expertise and profound wisdom with over 25 years as a licensed psychologist, certified plant-based nutrition expert, a master vegan lifestyle coach. You're really embody empowering people towards this plant-based plant powered lifestyle for physical, mental, and a multi.

emotional health. don't know why I'm goofing up so much today. So anyway, welcome to the podcast, Dr. Angela Crawford. Thanks for being here.

Angela Crawford, PhD (01:29)

I'm so glad

to be here. Thank you.

Bryan (01:31)

And I just want to be, I want to be upfront with the quick shout out. You've got a brand new book out, the author of the vegan transformation, right? A journey to heal yourself and the world. So thank you for being here and we'll make sure your book link is in our show notes. Okay.

Angela Crawford, PhD (01:48)

Sounds great. Yeah, thank you.

Bryan (01:50)

I thought we'd kick it off with just a couple of news articles that maybe we could talk about briefly. The one that I came across, like I'm always looking for these positive news articles, right? And I think one of the things that I'm hoping to accomplish is to live more than a hundred years, I hope. We'll see if my exercise can live up to Geoff's thing. But I ran across this article about Mike Fremont. He's this vegan runner who is a hundred and two years old and he is breaking all the records.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (02:16)

Thank

Bryan (02:18)

Right? Have you guys heard of him and seen him around?

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (02:20)

yeah.

Bryan (02:22)

Well, he is breaking multiple age related world records and he's beaten cancer through his plant based diet. So I know that resonates with me as men interested in peak performance, longevity, defying aging, all those kinds of things. I don't know if you guys have any secrets on that front or anything we want to talk about with regards to Mike. Have you met him, Geoff?

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (02:44)

I have not yet. friends with him on Facebook and we've chatted, but I would love to meet him in person. He's a personal hero of mine just because he's living the life. He's living proof of what can happen. It's exciting to see. I mean, but he can do pull-ups and push-ups and everything. It's not just running.

Bryan (02:54)

That's awesome.

Mm-hmm.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (03:09)

He's in good physical shape for someone over 100 years of age and still going and still sharp as a dot.

Bryan (03:16)

Yeah, that's awesome.

the other article I saw was on plant-based news, a new study that found, consuming certain plant-based foods, especially those rich in methyl aptogens like garlic, turmeric, berries, green tea are also proving to slow down biological aging. A study I was looking at even analyzed a trial of 43 adult men, 50 to 72, finding reductions equivalent to over three years in biological age. So I think that's.

Angela Crawford, PhD (03:23)

Thank

Bryan (03:47)

It's not even about like feeling good, staying young, strong, vibrant for even longer than we possibly can. I think that's something that you talk about a little bit in your book, if I'm right, Angela, right? In some fashion? Yeah.

Angela Crawford, PhD (03:59)

about living a long, healthy life.

Yeah, yeah, definitely some of the people I interviewed were pretty amazing in that regard.

Bryan (04:09)

And then the last story I had today was from the economic times on an identical twin experiment where one went vegan, the other stayed on their animal based products for six months. And the vegan twin Hugo showed significantly higher levels of key nutrients like omega threes and vitamin D three. So I think that goes back to stuff we always talk about on here, Geoff, with you that the animal products, you know, don't necessarily help facilitate that optimal.

nutrition intake, especially for guys that are active, right?

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (04:40)

Yeah, they did a really large population study looking at omega-3 levels in about 40,000 people, I believe. And they found that on average, vegans consumed two and a half times more omega-3 than meat eaters, even 100 % more than vegetarians. So vegans consume it. And it makes it.

It's real simple look. mean, Omega 3 is the only essential Omega 3, ALA is prevalent in plants, in nuts and seeds and grains and grains, all over the place. you know, this idea that vegans need to be more concerned about Omega 3, the opposite is actually the truth.

Bryan (05:21)

Yeah.

That's right. That's right. Well, I appreciate you.

talking with me briefly about some of those articles. I'm always looking for more. So if you guys have one out there that you want me to talk about on the show, send it my way. Angela, I really want to learn a little bit more about some of your story and the clients that you've helped throughout your career. I mean, you're focusing on the physical, mental, emotional wellbeing. It's so powerful what you're doing. What was the catalyst for you to transition from like some traditional psychotherapy to becoming such a dedicated vegan educator?

Thank

Angela Crawford, PhD (06:00)

Yeah, well, I guess it started first with me going on the journey of becoming vegetarian and then vegan myself, you know, which started first actually from learning about workers in a meat processing plant and many of them immigrants. It was a program on PBS that highlighted that a lot of them were having these work injuries and really horrific work conditions. And I was a psychologist in a pain management program at the time. And I think

Just something gave me compassion for the workers who didn't seem to have a lot of agency in the situation they were in. large agricultural employer was sort of discouraging them from seeking treatment or taking time off work. so just something about seeing that program, even though they did not show any gory details of animal slaughter or meat processing, it just got me thinking about how my food got to me. And that was enough to start me on the journey to

want to try going plant-based and trying some recipes and buying lots of pots and pans so I could actually cook, because I was not a cook before then. And then as I began reading more and more, I learned about the health benefits of a plant-based diet. I have a family history of heart disease. I learned about Dr. Dean Ornish and Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn's work. And that led me over time, first to be fully vegetarian and just not eat meat. And then,

Bryan (06:57)

Mm-hmm

Angela Crawford, PhD (07:15)

I wish it had happened sooner, but after several years, I finally knew I needed to move fully to a vegan lifestyle for both health and ethical reasons. You I realized that dairy wasn't doing me any favors in terms of some like, um, nasal congestion and things like that. Like whenever I would stop having dairy, all of a sudden I could breathe better and, know, so, you know, for health reasons, but also the ethical, I just finally made myself watch certain

Bryan (07:37)

Yeah.

Angela Crawford, PhD (07:44)

documentaries and other things that really made me connect with what happens to dairy cows and egg laying hens. And so for health and ethical reasons, just fully went vegan in 2019. And when I went vegan, and I knew it was about more than just me, because I realized our food and other choices affect so many things I care about, you know, as I mentioned, animals, you know, human health, the planet, there's a huge health crisis in our country and many other countries based on

lifestyle and our nutrition. And I wanted to help other people. So that led me down a path to, you know, go to things like Main Street Vegan Academy and the T. Colin Campbell, you know, Institute for Nutrition Studies and more recently becoming a food for life instructor from Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine and doing research for my book, just wanting to find how could I bring psychology to help people on this vegan plant-based journey.

Bryan (08:28)

Mm-hmm.

Angela Crawford, PhD (08:36)

and to kind of overcome our barriers and also to realize all the psychological benefits when we actually eat plants and align with our values.

Bryan (08:45)

Yeah. Amazing story. I had a parallel. mean, I was probably vegetarian for many years there until it finally just clicked that I've got to stop, you know, on that, on that front. So such a powerful aspect of that. think I hope to be able to wear that badge of honor like Geoff does. And, what are you at 45, 40 years? It's 40 years right now. Right. Yeah. So you're on mute, Geoff.

Angela Crawford, PhD (09:06)

I saw the t-shirt that you had.

Bryan (09:13)

You're on mute. Sorry, say that one more time.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (09:17)

Yeah, 40 years and fortunately vegan from day one. said I know animals in my... in any way. Now there was a little period where I had to discover all the animal products that were in processed foods that I wasn't even aware of. So that took a little bit of education. So it probably wasn't purely vegan until a little bit later when I started learning all that.

Bryan (09:44)

Yeah, I mean, and it's so true because they hide the animal products with all these weird names on that front for sure. have... Yeah.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (09:50)

the chemical names and you'd never know their animal products.

And remember 40 years ago, we didn't have the internet. That's much less Google or search engines. You had to call in on a phone and get a phone line correction.

Bryan (09:58)

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

That's right.

That's for sure.

I mean, we often hear from our listeners, especially the guys that are curious about this plant based eating. But I, you know, it just happened to me earlier today. Like I do this fractional CTO work and one of the CEOs that I know really well was asking me about vegan stuff. And I said, well, I'm going to send you the Thug Life cookbook.

that I love so much because it has, you know, that sort of punch in your face kind of attitude towards it. And, you know, and he was just asking me some questions. I go, just watch the game changers and try out a couple of recipes in this cookbook and you won't miss the food, the, meat, whatever grilled stuff you're used to eating. And on that front, just gotta, gotta give it a try for 30 days and challenged him to do that. And like, that's what I get to do at the leadership level every chance I get, but

But

there's that stigma of like...

Still the stigma of masculinity, I think that's tied to this meat angle, you know, potentially the fact of losing strength because they don't know people like Geoff has got the guns to show for it. You know what I mean? There it is. Can always count on Geoff for that. But I'm curious from your perspective, like as a psychologist and vegan educator with all the certifications that you've had, what is your direct message to those guys about strength, masculinity when they're

Angela Crawford, PhD (11:14)

you

Bryan (11:30)

embracing this compassionate plant-based life.

Angela Crawford, PhD (11:33)

Yeah. I've certainly learned a lot from Geoff. I've known Geoff for a few years now. And he was the one that really alerted me to that big disparity that so many more vegans are women than are men. And yet, I know some amazing vegan men from online, mainly, who are like Geoff, that are so muscular and strong and fitness-oriented. And like you mentioned, the game changers. So there's this reality that

Bryan (11:45)

Absolutely.

Angela Crawford, PhD (12:01)

people who actually go plant-based, and especially if they do it in a very aware way, where they're being aware of their nutrition, they're being aware of eating in a balanced way, and not just eating junk food, you can see the results, you know, and so I would just...

I think it's something that, you know, I just recently heard that, you know, it was said about compassion being weak or empathy being weak. And, you know, I just think that is the furthest thing from the truth because maybe speaking from a woman's perspective, many of us just really admire men who actually have empathy and compassion. I'm blessed to be married to a person like that that has empathy and compassion and who, you know, is running, you know,

Bryan (12:28)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Angela Crawford, PhD (12:44)

at an older age, not as old as the man you described earlier in the article, but he's in his early 70s and running regularly. so I know plant-based people who are just amazing men. And if you add in compassion and health and fitness into it, wow. So I just think men need to just be willing to explore a little bit. And they might be surprised, as I think you just said to your friend, the CEO. ⁓

Bryan (13:11)

Yeah.

Well, it's this it's that weird stigma that I feel like we have to change.

you know, to a degree that that even like even at my church where they they talk about, get out there and have some bacon, whatever, after we're done with the sermon today, like it perpetuates in so many aspects of our society. I feel like we have to come up with some some plant based sayings or something that counterbalance that. I know I purposely try to do that in things that I say, you know, to help change the narrative on on some of those.

I mean, Geoff, do you have some thoughts on this as well?

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (13:47)

Yeah,

I wanted to ask Angela, obviously social media is an important part of distributing information about not only the diet and the movement, but about your book. Why it's different, why it's addressing things that isn't really out there until your book came out. And of course, the engagement can be hostile sometimes, belligerent, very ignorant and

How do you deal with that? Do you address it? Do you ignore it? Do you politely respond with information and see where it leads? Do you keep the door open for conversation even from... And it's generally, and I hate to generalize because it's not fair, but it's generally men that are hyper-defensive. It's like a button, a trigger for them.

would you even say the V word around them? It's just like this automatic rapid fire of hostility. What do you, one, what do you see as the root cause of that, which I think we both have discussed before, but how do you engage in that? Because ignoring it isn't gonna make it go away. And it needs to change because unfairly,

Bryan (14:45)

Hmm

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (15:03)

Men still hold a majority of the positions of power and wealth in this country and we need them to change for real change to happen because they control too much of what is being sold, what is being told in the press. It has to be inclusive of men and right now we're not doing a great job of that. So thoughts on that.

Bryan (15:17)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Angela Crawford, PhD (15:26)

Well, fortunately so far, I have not received a lot of those comments yet. But I'm sure being in the space longer, all of us are going to receive them at some point. I think we have different personalities. So different personalities and people are going to handle what you describe differently. So first, why do people do it? I think there can be a range of reasons. Some people just want to be difficult and stir up arguments.

I think some people that do it might actually be wrestling with these issues subconsciously. And it comes out in those kinds of comments, because certainly we've seen people that were very defensive about it. And they were the ones actually struggling with some of the inner conflict around how they ate. so just knowing that just because someone says stuff like that, it doesn't mean that they may not ever be open to this. Maybe they won't. But some people, it might actually be that they're

they're struggling with these issues at a more subconscious level. But as far as how you respond, I mean, I think it depends on the situation. know, sometimes responding, as you said, with some information and, you know, trying to put in, you know, a response that could educate other people that read it, if nothing else, even if the person who wrote the kind of comment doesn't ever, you know, get it. However, if someone keeps just being

a jerk or kind of a troll, then there kind of has to be a limit to how much you want to engage with that. So I think knowing when it's time to just either delete a comment or just say enough, this isn't going anywhere. So I think there can be a balance there. And then some people have different personalities. You and I, have talked before. I'm kind of a softer, gentler personality. You said you're more kind of ready to be more direct, I guess. And so that's OK, too, because I do believe all.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (16:49)

great.

Thank

Angela Crawford, PhD (17:12)

All people with their different approaches have something to bring to the table. I'm going to touch certain people that Geoff may not, and Geoff is going to connect with people that I'm not going to. And I'm sure you too, Bryan. I'm just getting to know you. seeing what your approach is.

Bryan (17:24)

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't. Yeah. I'm not the guy who wants to rock the boat, but at the same time, like I know my core values and I want to reinforce them and push them to the people that I can influence on that front. So it really leads into my next question that I had written down is, is, know,

your book is, is trying to talk about these transformations and, and helping these people on that front. And to me, it is this mental and emotional game that we have to get people to upgrade in some fashion. Right? So do you have like one or two core principles or practices that you could teach people to help build some mental toughness? Like for me, it's not so much about sticking to my diet, but for some listeners out there, it might be on that front. For me, it's probably the exercise.

just because I'm so busy that I find like, how do I, how do I sneak in the exercise or make sure I do it in some fashion? Sometimes I do the walking phone call or the whatever I need to do to blend the two as they go. But like for me, like I just want to hang out with Geoff and the gym for an hour every day. And I know I'll be looking like him in three, six months. so I'm just curious if there's a couple principles or practices that would help us reinforce our plant-based lifestyle when the world is,

fighting against us at return.

Angela Crawford, PhD (18:46)

Okay, so this is about both our transition to and really sticking with a plant-based lifestyle. ⁓ Yeah. I think one foundation, you know, this is something that is, we're often reminded of, but I think is important maybe to re-remind ourselves, and that's having a very strong why or motivation for why we're doing this and reconnecting with that motivation on a regular basis.

Bryan (18:54)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Angela Crawford, PhD (19:14)

So that's one foundation. so whatever your motivation is, whether it is for your health, whether it is for fitness, whether it is for animal ethics or the environment, and or maybe all of the above, having a statement or a vision that you hold that relates to that, that you remind yourself of regularly, because there are, as you said, going to be things that want to throw us off track, whether it be.

all the social gatherings we're at where the food that's there is not the food that we as a plant-based eater are wanting to eat or whether it be our own, especially early in the transition, our own addictions to certain foods, our own comfort foods that we're used to relying on. So I think that's strong why. And then related to that would be being proactive and prepared, setting up a lifestyle that actually supports you.

because we often think like when we make a change, like that we just take action and then we're there. But the reality is maintenance is one of the stages of change. so maintenance means having a structure set up in our life that makes this doable and repeatable and sustainable. so the structure can be having support system, like you mentioned, going to the gym with your friend, it can be.

Bryan (20:28)

Mm-hmm.

Angela Crawford, PhD (20:29)

making sure we shop every week and have the food in the pantry that we need to eat the way we want to eat. can mean meal planning. It can mean having the education tools. So those are a couple things that come right to the forefront.

Bryan (20:43)

I love it. Those are some great tips. Any thoughts, Geoff? ⁓

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (20:48)

Yeah,

know recidivism can be an issue. We have a lot of peer pressure from workmates, from family members especially, probably the strongest one. If there is religion involved too, that can be pressure. you know, and then of course we're almost our entire

commercial food system is set up to bombard us 24 seven with images and socialization. Like the picture of the happy dad with the playing kids and the loving mother sitting there grilling meat on the thing. There's this emotional ethos that they've created that this is how families are. This is the family unit.

It's this food that makes us all happy and keeps us together. So when you say, don't eat meat, ⁓ you're breaking apart the whole structure. You're wrecking the whole system. That's the whole house of cards will collapse without that. So it's much bigger than diet. It is much, much bigger than diet. And that's why I love the your book.

Bryan (21:37)

you

you

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (22:00)

I think finally addresses some of this psycho-emotional and social, socially ingrained behavior that we are unknowingly sometimes just totally immersed in and indoctrinated. It's, you know, I hate to use the matrix analogy over, but it's so accurate that we don't even know we're in this programming. We don't know that this food that they have told us

all our lives and every minute of every day on TVs, on commercials, just driving down the street, it's all meat everywhere. It's all animal products. If you don't have an animal product in every single meal, something's missing. You know, where is the meat in this plate? It's so deep and ingrained that people aren't even aware that that's commercial corporate indoctrination.

Bryan (22:43)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (22:57)

It's sales!

Bryan (22:59)

Very much so. And it's rampant in America. I think it's less so in other countries that I've visited at times. But I I grew up in an Italian household. like Italian sausages, meatballs. mean, we live for our pasta, our cheese, all that kind of good stuff. My mom, I love her to death. She tries to make the vegan sauce for me, the vegan meatballs now and then. she, you know, she sets it all aside and promises I didn't didn't commingle with whatever else she was making.

So, but it is, I it hit her hard on how am I going to cook the good food my son wants on that front when he doesn't eat anything that I used to cook. ⁓

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (23:38)

Angela, I'm going to ask you a question

about what a dear friend of ours, Claire,

about which is this awakening that, my god I've been lying to you this whole time. my god this stuff has been killing me and I thought it was normal. And then when you awaken and then you see everything differently for the first time and you see all your friends and family totally asleep and numb to this, it feels weird. It feels like all of a sudden you're alone in the world.

Everybody else is insane and you're not for the first time. But you can't say anything because it's not proper to say everybody else is programmed. Everybody else is indoctrinated. Everybody else is asleep in a cult, you know, of food that's been sold to them. Where do you go with that? How do you deal with people who are awakening to this? How the light bulb turned on and see the world as almost a scary place?

Bryan (24:27)

Mm-hmm

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (24:40)

Ow.

Bryan (24:42)

Very true.

Angela Crawford, PhD (24:43)

I mean,

you've said a lot of really important things, Geoff, you even leading up to this, what you're sharing about Claire Mann's work with Vistopia, what you mentioned about just our social conditioning. think first just naming that as a foundation that I think a lot of us just don't realize how much we've been conditioned. And I think Dr. Melanie Joy's work really made me more aware of that. She wrote the book, Why We Love Dogs Eat Pigs and Wear Cows. And that's when I first came to understand like, okay, I became vegan.

first vegetarian than vegan for ethical reasons. Why are other people not joining me on this journey? And that sort of made me aware that it's like the water we swim in, we don't see it, you know, we're raised to believe we need me to survive. And I was like that too. You mentioned having it every meal, there was a time I had it pretty much every meal because I thought that I needed to. So I can resonate with that, you know, kind of

Bryan (25:22)

Mm-hmm.

Angela Crawford, PhD (25:36)

where most of us are at on this journey. And then, like you mentioned, we learn what happens in animal agriculture. And then we learn the health costs of eating so much meat and dairy. then we wonder, like you say, why has no one ever told us this? Why was this hidden from us? so, know, Claremann describes it as the burden of knowing. Suddenly now we're aware of something that most of society has.

not yet looked at. You know, I mean, it's not really that hard to see if we actually wanted to look, but I think a lot of us just don't want to or afraid to. So, yeah, how do we deal with it? I think it's it's challenging. I think I kind of try to remind myself and others that I'm supporting is that we're leaders in a sense in a movement. You know, whether you're in this for health and fitness or whether you're in this for ethical reasons and or both or the environment.

Bryan (26:11)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Angela Crawford, PhD (26:32)

You're a leader in a movement that's for a more compassionate, healthy, sustainable world and a more healthy, compassionate, sustainable life. so kind of just if you're a leader, you have to, I guess, except not everybody's in the same place yet. And that for some people, it's going to take it reaching a tipping point, I think, for that to become easier for them to move into this plant-based realm.

Bryan (26:51)

Mm-hmm.

Angela Crawford, PhD (27:01)

But you know what, like, wow, it's so huge to stand up and dare to be different, dare to be independent thinkers and dare to honor your compassion and your ethics when those around you are not yet doing that fully.

Bryan (27:14)

Yeah, 100%. I.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (27:17)

And

we talk about courage, we talk about bravery, we talk about strength of convention being masculine traits. And yet it's the men that are scared of change, scared of being ostracized by their peers, by being outed by other men. You know, they're afraid, they're sheeple, they're staying in the sheep pack, you know, so they don't get called out.

brave to stand up to everybody else, the other 99 % when they're screaming and yelling at you that you're wrong. It takes courage. It takes strength of conviction. These are masculine traits. I want to see more men step up and be a man and grow some low hanging fruit and stand up to the pressures, the peer pressures. That's not man.

Bryan (27:58)

Mm-hmm.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (28:05)

masculine, that's cowardice to fall to the pack, to hide behind the social norms and the status quo. Anybody can cave to that. That's not special. That's not being a man.

Bryan (28:17)

That's that's that's our that's our whole slogan here, Geoff. Rev up your man

machine with the force of flora. You know what I mean? So I love it. Boom. I mean, the two things that popped in my head, like the things that I try to say to people just to get them to open their perspective is that I don't think it really clicks with people until you tell them that, look, you know, the chicks are born and the men are instantly killed. You know, we're killing billions of male chickens.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (28:24)

Done again.

Bryan (28:45)

every single day. You know what I mean? Like it's just incredible just because of that. But the other thing that like, I'm really curious, like I think we should do a whole separate episode on this whenever you guys want to come back and geek out with me about outer space. Cause the outer space article that I'm so in love with is that 127 light years away, we may have found a planet that's in the right spot. That's got the atmosphere, it's got water, and we're detecting little signs of some chemicals in the outer.

outer atmosphere that there could be life on that planet. And I'm just curious if we can get there sometime in the next couple thousand years and check in on them. What if we get to that planet and they're like, no, we've never ate animals like that's never been a thing like this could be a whole vegan planet out there. And they're looking at us like we're crazy. So I'm curious to geek out on that sometime with you. But yeah, I mean, I want to get back to the book at hand here because we're here to help promote Angela and

your amazing book that's out, A Vegan Transformation Journey to Heal Yourself and the World. What was the driving force behind writing this book right now? And what is it that you're really hoping to convey with the book as you get it out to the world?

Angela Crawford, PhD (29:59)

Yeah, well, I felt there were a lot of books about the physical health aspects of a vegan or plant-based lifestyle. And there were a fair number about the ethical reasons for choosing this lifestyle. But I hadn't seen so much about what happens inside of us emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually when we embark on a plant-powered vegan lifestyle. maybe my background in psychology, made me curious about that.

Bryan (30:07)

Mm-hmm.

Angela Crawford, PhD (30:24)

You know, I also felt like a lot of people think being plant-based or vegan is depriving. you know, we, I'm sure you guys feel this way too. I found it was super abundant. It was fulfilling. You know, not only was the food, you know, much more fulfilling and abundant than I ever thought. Every, almost every vegan I talked to is like, I only wish I'd chosen this lifestyle sooner. So I wanted to really capture the positives of it. I knew a lot of spiritual, compassionate people who hadn't yet made

this transition or, you know, awake and awoken to this lifestyle. They want to make the world a better place, yet they're still eating animals. And so I just wanted to share the positives of it. And I wanted to share the psychological aspects. And I did also address the psychological and emotional challenges as well. You know, I asked the people I surveyed about 350 vegans and I interviewed 75 in depth to find out what how their lives have changed emotionally and spiritually and psychologically.

and socially being vegan, and then what were the benefits and what were the challenges and how did they deal with any challenges? so the book shares the findings from these surveys and interviews and then ties it in with other research that kind of grounds the basic themes that showed up in my conversations.

Geoff was actually one of the people I interviewed for my book. And I share a little bit about him and chapters on purpose and health empowerment, because he is definitely an example of both of those, living your purpose and being empowered over your health and fitness. But yeah, I met some inspiring people. I was thinking, how many of them were men? I don't have the exact number of how many people I surveyed or interviewed were men, because I didn't require everyone to put a demographic.

data. I wanted to make it as accessible as possible, to have as many people respond as possible. But I looked it over and you know what? I'm not sure how many, but there were a fair number of men. It wasn't maybe, I think there were more women that responded, but there were quite a few men. so they had some great stories that they shared about their vegan journeys that were very inspiring.

Bryan (32:18)

Mm-hmm.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (32:25)

One thing I want to say is that I think it's very important that you, the person that you are, wrote this book. Because when I say something, I get blasted by guys because they're threatened by my appearance, they're threatened by my knowledge of the science, they're threatened in so many different ways. You are so disarming, you are so loving and caring in your personality.

Bryan (32:25)

I love it.

Ahem.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (32:54)

think you just bridge right through that. It's like a puppy talking to you. You don't punch a puppy, you know, you just, you don't, but you can share the wisdom and the depth of your knowledge and your experience from one, your clinical background, your training as a psychotherapist, as a psychologist. But

Angela Crawford, PhD (32:59)

.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (33:15)

So people see you in that professional light. People see you in a very disarming way that you're trying to help. That's your passion. That's your goal. So I'm glad that someone, I'm glad that you specifically wrote this book because I think you have done so well at bridging that gap, which I could never just because the way I look and who I am and my personality. So like you said before,

some things are going to work for me. This was a perfect way to write it because your personality is linked and just exuded through the whole book. It's beautiful read.

Angela Crawford, PhD (33:53)

Thank you.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (33:54)

Mm-hmm. ⁓

Bryan (33:54)

I love it. mean,

I started off my career at

Xerox way back when, know, printing company, you know, pre internet again, Geoff, right. And this, this crazy world we live in and one of the biggest clients of Xerox was the Seventh-day Adventist Church. They printed so much stuff on that front. And so I, I didn't know what it was way back when. And that was way before I was on this plant-based journey. And I discovered it and that just always stuck in my head how, you know, it does seem like

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (34:02)

you

Bryan (34:24)

I was hoping that there would be more world religions that tie in the, the not killing of animals and stuff as part of reaching spiritual enlightenment to a degree. And, know, obviously the Christian faith doesn't quite follow that as much as it should be. Like I, it's just so interesting to see the SDA and some of those kinds of similar ones trying to embrace that, that aspect of it for that third piece. So maybe, maybe that's my question, I guess, are you going to write a third book on the spiritual side?

of this for us to help unpack that one more. It could be a great angle.

Angela Crawford, PhD (34:56)

It could

be. I mean, I do touch on it in the book. It's not the main focus, but it was one of the questions that came up was, you know, how has your life been affected spiritually? And one thing I was really, you know, I was really surprised how many people responded in different ways to share that whether they were of a particular religion, like Christian or Jewish or other religions, or whether they were just maybe more spiritual, and even some who said I'm atheist, there were so many that

Bryan (35:00)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Angela Crawford, PhD (35:22)

had comments or open-ended responses to the questions that said things along the line of, well, one quote, I feel more spiritual now that I don't have to take a life to live my life. ⁓ Others said, I now realize that I'm interconnected with nature, with spirit, and with all sentient beings in a way that I hadn't realized fully before. I think there's something about when you stop eating animals, that defensiveness that

Bryan (35:34)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Angela Crawford, PhD (35:51)

and that kind of block that we have to seeing how we're interconnected, that comes down. And people said they felt lighter, they felt closer. If they were religious, they felt closer to God and you know, and many said nature as well. And their own inner knowing, their own intuition became clearer. So yeah, that was something I hadn't fully been expecting to come through as strongly as it did, but there was a lot of strong responses about

a spiritual deepening and experiences that fit with things like awakening and feeling more connected to something higher and deeper. Not easy to capture sometimes, but yeah.

Bryan (36:28)

Yeah,

think that's something we should unpack some more as well, but like it it

I agree with Geoff. sounds like the perfect book at the perfect time. I hope a whole bunch of people get it. Tell us. I guess I want to go into the little rapid fire questions if we could as we wrap up today's episode. But where can we get the book, Angela? And how do how do people get in touch with you?

Angela Crawford, PhD (36:55)

Yeah. Before I tell you where to get the book, I want to tell you really quickly a funny story, cool story, talking about men. A male friend of mine that went to my church reached out to me and asked me to send a copy of the book for his wife, who is having a birthday soon. And so I sent a signed copy to them. He emailed me two weeks later and said, we're going vegan. I'm

Bryan (37:01)

Please.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (37:14)

Thank

Angela Crawford, PhD (37:14)

You know, and then like two weeks later, I've lost 10 pounds and we're loving it. And they met with me for like a kind of a coaching session to kind of get some guidance on deepening into how to live this lifestyle. But I remember when he asked me for the book, I had no idea he had any interest in perhaps going vegan, because that had never been something he never talked about with me. I thought it was just for his wife, but they're doing it together. And so.

Bryan (37:18)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Angela Crawford, PhD (37:38)

It's written in a way that's meant to be engaging, not only in inviting, not only for those already on the vegan path, but for those that just might be slightly curious because it's non-judgmental. So I did want to share that because it was really inspiring.

Bryan (37:49)

Yeah. No, that's an amazing

story. And this goes back to Geoff's point, like the men run the planet, but they are secretly run by the women in their lives. And so I find that a lot of women will convince the guys to come along on that journey with us. So stand up to your man and get him to join the plant based team with us if you're listening to this. So that's a great story. That's right.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (37:58)

Yeah.

.

Angela Crawford, PhD (38:09)

Yeah, and he'll live a longer, healthier life, most likely, you know, which, yeah, so.

But as far as the book, it's available anywhere where books are sold. I do have a book tab on my website, angelacroffordphd.com, that you can see some of the places like Amazon, Barnes and Noble, the book shop. So it's available just about anywhere in paperback or ebook, and soon there will be an audiobook, too.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (38:36)

you

Bryan (38:36)

Awesome

that I can't wait for Okay, a couple of rapid-fire questions. I want each of you to both answer please with a quick anecdote on it Best piece of advice for a man who's curious about plant-based living but feels overwhelmed

Angela Crawford, PhD (38:54)

Geoff, go first.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (38:55)

Yeah,

get ready. You're going to be hit with a bunch of attacks. Stay strong, stay in your conviction and use it as a way to hone your center, your core, to strengthen your core. We talked about core training and working out, but this one is spiritual, energetic, emotional, and psychological. Stand true to the truth. That's a powerful experience for a man to feel.

Look forward to that. When they come at you fast and furious, use that to strengthen. Iron strengthens iron.

Bryan (39:32)

That's

right. I love it.

Angela Crawford, PhD (39:33)

And I would say read something or watch something that really connects you with a strong reason why you're doing this and that will help you keep going. It's just like learning anything, you know. It takes time sometimes and yeah, there might be setbacks, but don't let those setbacks derail you. Let them be learning opportunities and you can keep growing and learning. And yeah, this is a lifestyle that requires you to step up even in, you know,

about being sort of a leader. You might be inspiring others in your life towards a better, healthier life too.

Bryan (40:02)

Mm-hmm.

I agree. mean, I started this blog, RealMenEatPlants.com because I wanted to make sure I held myself accountable to this. And that's why I have this sign above me. Remember why you started. it's just, you know, all goes back to that. Great words of advice from both of you. Last one, your go-to practice when you need to reconnect with your sense of purpose.

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (40:32)

I work out, I push myself to the brink of physical pain. So not to the brink, through physical pain, because I push really hard. And sometimes I just don't want to work out. Sometimes I just feel exhausted or stressed out from work or whatever. And then I call on that inner self. I think about all the animals.

depending on me to be a voice in humanity. They can't speak our human language, not verbally. I need to be that for them. And remember, any kind of suffering that I go through pales in comparison to what 70 billion land animals and two trillion aquatic life go through every single day. I do it for them. When I call on that, I feel strong. I can muscle through anything.

Hey!

Bryan (41:25)

I love it. Angela, do you have a thought?

Angela Crawford, PhD (41:27)

Yeah.

Yeah, for me, how you start your day has such a huge impact on how everything else goes the rest of the day. So for me, having a morning routine where I do my exercise that might be, you know, walking and strength training and or yoga. And then I do, you know, meditation, prayer and visualization. A lot of times visualizing the world that I'm standing for, that I want to contribute to.

that is already compassionate and healthy and sustainable. And how I'm meant to show up to help contribute to that. And I just hold that each day and keep that routine going and that helps me stay on track.

Bryan (42:07)

I love it. Well, that is some additional great words of advice from both of you. I want to say Dr. Angela Crawford, thank you for joining us on the Real Money Plants podcast and sharing such profound insights. You are real inspiration to both Geoff and I, and I'm sure tons of listeners out there.

Angela Crawford, PhD (42:26)

Thanks for having me. It was great to be with both of you.

Bryan (42:29)

And Geoff, thank you again for listening in and pouring in some great words of advice and inspiration for us. How do people get in touch with you and Clean Machine?

Geoff Palmer, Clean Machine (42:38)

Yeah, you can catch me and my name on Facebook or Clean Machine Fit on Facebook and IG and Clean Machine Online on YouTube. And of course, you can go to our website, Clean Machine.

Bryan (42:51)

Don't forget to check out Geoff and some of his amazing products that he has out there. They will help you on your journey as well. And to all our listeners, I want to say thank you for tuning in to another episode of Real Men Eat Plants. If today's episode ignited something in you, please do us a favor. Can you click that subscribe button wherever you're listening, share this episode with another man who needs to hear this message, and follow us on social media, Real Men Eat Plants. Check out Geoff's incredible work in cutting edge plant-based supplements.

on his website like he said and join the community of growing men redefining their strength. I want to leave us with just a quick quote. Remember true strength isn't just about what's on your plate. It's about the mindset you bring to every challenge and the compassionate choices you make. Join us next time for another empowering conversation. Until then keep thriving on those plants gentlemen. Thank you.