Dr. Angela Crawford on The Vegan Transformation

In this powerful episode of The Glen Merzer Show, psychologist and advocate Dr. Angela Crawford shares an intimate look into the emotional and psychological journey of going vegan. Drawing from both personal experience and years of professional insight, Dr. Crawford sheds light on what truly changes when people choose to live with compassion.

“I found purpose in my vegan lifestyle,” she says, reflecting on how embracing veganism helped her find deeper meaning—not just in food, but in life itself.

Dr. Crawford breaks down the seven core themes of transformation that individuals often experience after going vegan. These include alignment with personal values, increased compassion, and a growing sense of interconnectedness with the world. For many, the shift begins with a health concern—but it often evolves into something far more profound.

“It opened up my mind and my health,” she explains, describing how ethical and environmental awareness deepened her commitment beyond dietary changes.

However, the path to a vegan lifestyle isn’t always smooth. Dr. Crawford openly discusses the emotional toll of navigating social dynamics, the resistance vegans often face, and the struggle of raising awareness without judgment.

“It’s hard to navigate social situations,” she admits, offering empathy and encouragement for those trying to stand in their truth without alienating others.

She also emphasizes how community support and education are essential to sustaining this lifestyle—whether through online groups, local meetups, or simply connecting with like-minded individuals.

This episode is a beautiful reminder that going vegan is not just about what's on your plate—it’s about living with intention, connection, and courage. Dr. Angela Crawford’s story shows how a single choice can spark a lifetime of healing, advocacy, and purpose.

🎧 Watch or listen to the full conversation on The Glen Merzer Show—available now.

📌 Watch the episode here: Dr. Angela Crawford on The Vegan Transformation

 Listen to our other podcasts:

DISCLAIMER: Please understand that the transcript below was provided by a transcription service. It is undoubtedly full of the errors that invariably take place in voice transcriptions. To understand the interview more completely and accurately, please watch it here: Dr. Angela Crawford on The Vegan Transformation

Here's the transcript:

Welcome to The Glen Merzer Show. can find us across all your favorite podcast platforms. You can find us on YouTube. And please remember to subscribe. It costs you nothing. And I get a million dollars for everyone who subscribes. So it helps me out a lot. Our guest today has written her first book. It's called The Vegan Transformation, A Journey to Heal Yourself.

and the world. Angela Crawford, PhD, holds a doctorate in clinical psychology and has worked for 25 years as a psychotherapist, which makes her just the perfect person to talk to, to ask her, what the heck is wrong with people that they don't all go vegan? Angela, welcome to the show. Well, thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

So tell us a little bit about your journey first. You became a vegan yourself a little under 20 years ago, I think. Yeah, you know, actually it started with becoming vegetarian, which was, you know, early, late 2006, early 2007. And it unfortunately took me longer than I would have liked to become fully vegan, even though I became vegetarian for many of the reasons that then led me later to embrace a fully vegan lifestyle. But, you know, it started for me with

seeing a program that happened to be on PBS about workers in a meat processing plant. And it might have been significant that only a few months before I saw this program, I had eaten at a conference center that had predominantly plant-based food. And I remember like thinking, this is really good. I mean, I can understand better how someone could be vegetarian or vegan because it would taste so good, but I couldn't imagine cooking it because I wasn't a cook. So I was just like, just totally forgot about it once I left the conference center.

And then I watched this program and it was about the workers and it just featured how many of them were immigrants and were it was like some sort of meat processing plant probably in North Carolina and how many of them just had frequent injuries and but because you know their employer would discourage them from seeking treatment or taking time off or they might lose their job. They just had to keep working even though they were injured and it just

RMEP Podcast (02:30.246)

something about it just struck me as seeming very unjust. And I think part of that was I was working in a pain management program at the time with injured workers, not from that industry, but it just, you know, probably gave me a sense of empathy that maybe not everybody might immediately have. And as I started thinking about the workers and what felt like a really unjust working situation, it didn't take me very long to start to think, well, if you don't like how the workers are treated, what do you think happens to the animals? And

You know, the very next day I went to Barnes and Noble, bought my first vegetarian cookbook and tried out a recipe for vegetarian lasagna with red peppers, artichokes and spinach. I always just remember because of the colors and how delicious it was. And I was not a cook. I like tended to just eat comfort foods and convenience foods and microwave meals. So.

This was a big adventure and I even had to buy pots and pans while I was cooking because I didn't have the right ones. But it turned out great and I shared it with my now husband, then boyfriend and his family and they loved it. And it just, you know, started me thinking like, huh, maybe this is something I want to do. And I started doing what a lot of us do that become vegetarian vegan is I started reading everything I could. And very quickly I learned.

you know, not only the ethical concerns of factory farming, I started to learn. I read things like Mad Cowboy by Howard Lyman. I remember that book. You were part of that, right? Yeah. It's a great book and just different books like that, Food Revolution and Diet for a New America by John Robbins. All these books started me thinking about what happens with animal agriculture that I had never thought of.

even though I grew up in the Midwest where you'd think I might have some idea, but I really didn't. And then I learned about the health part too, that Dean Ornish had reversed heart disease. So all these different things, it just seemed like a win-win. gradually, over a few months period, I made the commitment to stop eating meat. And I did cut way back on dairy and eggs, but I hadn't fully made that connection in terms of if, you know,

RMEP Podcast (04:48.342)

If I think meat is cruel to animals, what about the meat and dairy industries or the dairy and egg industries? I quickly learned that they were also very cruel and not healthy either in terms of my own health. So, but it's not only are they equally cruel for the those vegetarian cheese eaters out there who do so because they feel that they're they don't have to kill the cow in order in order to get the cheese.

The reality is that the dairy industry would not exist if the cow didn't then go on to be slaughtered. It's the dairy industry that makes McDonald's possible. So dairy is the source of cheap meat as well as the cheese that threatens your heart. Yeah. mean, how do we not make these connections? But I think

often we don't. That what happens to the cow and does it really just give milk, you know, without having to have a baby and having that baby that should be having the milk be taken away. And then as you're saying, the cows end up dying, you know, being unable to continue after a few years, five years at most maybe. when they're spent, they're sent to the slaughterhouse. Now it's interesting that

What propelled you at first to go vegetarian was the treatment of workers. That's a wonderful reason. And in fact, the plight of the workers and meatpacking plants needs more attention because very often, not only are they treated badly, but very often they are undocumented children. Undocumented children. Talk about powerless people.

So it's, and so what happens is when somebody in the department of labor or wherever discovers that there are undocumented children, they pay a little fine. It's the cost of one or two days worth of profits. And then they continue to employ undocumented children in meat packing plants. is really sad. I mean, when I first became vegetarian, I wasn't even aware of the children part of it, you know, and that

RMEP Podcast (07:10.784)

I became more aware of later on, you know, some expose that some of us heard about a few years ago. But your your reason for initially going vegetarian is a good one. And, you know, I've heard people doing it for the animals, certainly for health or the environment. But let's add to that for the workers, which also for the workers, because this is the worst job in America to work in a slaughterhouse. Definitely.

That's for sure. And of course, it creates health and mental health issues for those that are in those jobs. So you can't keep doing that work and not have it have a cost. So you slowly transitioned to being vegan. Yeah. So that didn't happen until about six years ago. I was close to there. But just that final step that I'm committed to this.

about six years ago, just I think enough things fell into place that I just couldn't continue on eating any dairy and eggs. And for me, the social aspects were the biggest challenge, I believe, just kind of, I think meat, I really made that connection that it was animal flesh. It just was, it became very cut and dried for me, but dairy was a little more hidden. So I think it was a little easier to justify in my head, but.

something clicked a little over six years ago where it was just, no, this is time. And, you know, I realized too, was beyond me. Like when I became vegetarian, it was a personal choice that I just felt was right for me, for my health, for my ethics, and fortunately helps the planet too. But when I became vegan, I think I made the connections a lot more of all of it, that, you know, it made such an impact on so many things I cared about and I wanted to help others.

make those connections to. So it became part of a professional part of my professional journey as well at that point. So you are as well qualified as anyone to talk about the psychology of going vegan and and how it changes one's outlook on life. And you in the course of writing this book, you had hundreds of people who are vegans fill out a survey. Is that right?

RMEP Podcast (09:35.86)

Yes, yeah, part of the research process, which started about four years ago, I sent out, I had surveys and reached out to people that I connected with through different social media and different vegan groups and vegan networks. And so about 350 of them from across the globe filled it out. And then I followed up with 75 in-depth interviews. And the questions I was asking had to do with

How does how has being vegan affected you emotionally, socially, psychologically and spiritually? And what were the benefits? And then what were the challenges and how did you cope with those challenges? And and Angela, hold up the book. You have the book. Sure. Yeah, there it is. Beautiful lavender color. The vegan transformation. Yes. A journey to heal yourself and the world. Yeah.

I was very happy with how the cover turned out. It's just, it's kind of like the vision of the world we'd like to see. So what did you learn from interviewing? You interviewed about 75 of the people. yeah. So the surveys gave foundational information and then the interviews sort of flushed it out to make it more, you know, more specific and human to take, you know, what I was seeing through the surveys, the trends and

themes and to learn more about those themes. you know, across the surveys and interviews, I found seven core themes that were the most commonly reported changes that people reported that were part of their vegan journey. like, because this is a correlational kind of thing where I'm just asking them, you know,

questions about their experience. can't say what caused what or what order things happened in, but these were things that from their their own self perspective were part of their journey that were really positive and transformational. All right. So let's talk about those seven positive transformational changes. OK. And I'll be thinking, did I have that one too? Great. Well, the foundational one is in some ways very obvious, but it's

RMEP Podcast (11:57.422)

it can't be overlooked. And that was values alignment. know, about 85 % of people said that that was one of the most positive aspects of becoming vegan was that suddenly now they were living aligned with their values. And they said things like, you know, I hadn't realized there was a weight on me until it was lifted by no longer eating meat. Or, you know, I hadn't realized how out of alignment I was with my core values, like compassion and health.

other, you know, caring about the environment until I learned all this about animal agriculture and stopped eating meat. And, you know, now I feel at peace in a way I didn't feel before. I'll put myself in that group. So that's the first one. Yeah. What's the second group? The second group is expanding your circle of compassion. You know, so many of us identify as compassionate people, but we're only compassionate towards

people that are like us and certain kinds of animals and not all animals, you know, and we might not also think really much about the planet itself. most, you know, the majority of people I interviewed said that their circle of compassion expanded. Even those that were, became vegan more for health reasons. Several of them would say, you know, I might not have started because of the animals, but I became much more aware of their plight. And that's the group I'm in. I became first a vegetarian and then a vegan for health reasons.

And I knew I had friends who were more animal rights activists and had gone vegan for the animals. But as I made this transition, I started to see things the way they did and often feel that they were better people than I was. I appreciate their perspective. They may be more

tuned to animals than I am, but I came to appreciate that view of the world, putting the animals.

RMEP Podcast (14:05.612)

in the forefront. Yeah. And just to say something more about that, that about 85 % or 80 some percent said they initially, that was one of the reasons compassion for animals that they became vegan, but it was 90 some percent that said that was a reason they stayed vegan. just about everybody had kind of come to include that as at least one of their reasons for staying vegan, even if that wasn't why they initially moved in that direction.

And I don't know if this is a distinction that you've made, but I always made it in my mind. I knew people who became vegetarians or vegans because they felt morally wrong to kill animals. And I always had trouble saying to my family,

saying to my close friends, what you're doing is morally wrong. You're animals and killing them is morally wrong. So I tried not to think that way, but I just found it revolting. I just found it emotionally upsetting. The thought of, know, slitting the throats of cows and hanging them upside down and the treatment of the pigs. So I tried to make a distinction in my mind. Well, whether or not it's morally wrong.

It is just.

It's just upsetting. And then I came to feel that, yeah, it's morally wrong too. Yeah, I think you're describing, it's a path that a lot of us go down as we explore this more because, as Dr. Melanie Joy teaches, we're raised to believe that eating meat is normal, natural, and necessary. It's what's been done for so many years. And so it is hard initially to say that, you know, what you're mentioning, morally wrong, but...

RMEP Podcast (16:04.748)

I think once many of us explore more what actually happens in this process and what I feel really OK about it and if it was my dog or cat, would I feel OK about it? And if I have a choice, you know, maybe not everybody in the world has a choice, but those of us that do. And then we find we can actually thrive as you're mentioning the health aspects, it sort of like becomes it sort of changes the equation. So all right. So what was the next transformative

change that people have. Yeah, and you know, I think the other ones all stem from those first two. I think the values alignment and the compassion laid the foundation for how these others all came into play because when you're honoring your values, one of which is compassion, some of these others can kind of come together with it. So meaning and purpose was the next one. I mean, the number of people that had found purpose through their vegan lifestyle was just amazing. And maybe my

My sample might've been a little skewed, but so many found purpose. First of all, just from the very fact that eating this way can serve so many things that we care about like the environment and health and animals, but others had taken it a step further like by doing what you're doing, creating podcasts, writing books, writing social media posts, creating businesses.

being like vegan fitness coaches or vegan health coaches. just, in fact, one of the chapters in the book is on this, know, meaning and purpose. And then I have an appendix where I list like all these different ways people were applying their personal gifts and experience to somehow serve and share this message. you know, I think part of why it's so meaningful is because it does touch on so many issues, you know.

whether it be that you care about animals, whether you care about health, you care about the environment or all of the above, it just can, or food justice that came up for some people that having more food equity. So all these different areas. So I think that's part of why it just creates a sense of purpose. Cause we can see the world is suffering. We can see like the health crisis, all these people ill that maybe don't need to be because they have.

RMEP Podcast (18:28.408)

preventable illnesses that lifestyle could affect or seeing animals suffer on a larger scale than ever because of industrialization. So seeing the environment, of course, that's just more and more obvious. And unfortunately, when you become a vegan, you discover you're part of a very small minority. And and the determination to stay vegan in spite of the fact that you're part of a

small minority helps give you a purpose. That's very true. That's a really good point that there's some part of, know, yeah, like each day. And I think about the kind of world that I'm hoping to contribute to. And that helps me stay motivated not only to stay vegan, but to keep trying to share in whatever way I can. So I'd say I'm in that group. What's the next group? The next group, the next transformation was

what I called authentic fulfillment. And this had to do with kind of an emotional well-being, a fulfillment that it's not about being happy all the time, you know, because like being vegan, just like anything, you're not going to necessarily be happy all the time. And especially when you're aware of some of the suffering in the world in a way that sometimes we can even be more aware of as vegans, you're going to feel sad sometimes and angry or discouraged. it's- people who are happy all the time can be annoying.

Exactly. It's not really, again, as a psychologist, when I was working with clients, that wasn't the expectation that anyone would be happy all the time. It's more like, how do you deal with the normal ups and downs of life in a way that you're still fulfilled? so it was kind of this, so many of the people said, like, I'm fulfilled in a deeper way than I was before. And again, I think that tied in with the meaning and purpose a lot and just a lot of their life coming back together in a more holistic way.

And I also cover in the chapter on authentic fulfillment, the food mood connection, because eating whole food plant-based vegan not only helps our physical health, it can help our mental health too. It helps our brain at eating more fruits and vegetables is tied to better emotional wellbeing and more fibers tied to gut health, which helps the neurotransmitters in our emotional wellbeing. So, you know, there's definitely, you know, not only that

RMEP Podcast (20:52.802)

It was both the nutrition piece of eating foods that nourish our bodies and our brains and our nervous system. And then also that we're eating in alignment with our values, all that kind of tied together to create an authentic fulfillment for many vegans. Again, vegans are a broad category. Some are gonna struggle with other issues just like anybody would, but a lot of people found fulfillment.

I don't know, how about you? So authentic fulfillment. So would you define that as a feeling of contentment rather than constant happiness? Yeah, I would say contentment along with the ability to navigate actually the emotional ups and downs of life, know, the and kind of a more

Like a sense of wellness that has to do with just your overall well-being. Like, OK, I might have my tough days, and I might have my good days. But overall, I'm living a life that I can feel good about. I think that's how you might describe it. OK. I hope I'm in that group. I think so. I'm not sure to what extent that has to do with being a vegan or being a playwright. Because you see, I started as a playwright. I still write plays.

And you have to deal with so much rejection in that field. I was rejected by theaters I didn't even know existed. So you just get so many rejection letters in the mail that you have to keep your spirits up. know, that's a good. Well, you know, that's one thing I do touch on in the chapter, because I think that was the most complicated one to write because.

Some vegans, especially ethical vegans struggle with the emotional distress of seeing what happens to animals. there's that. And then we have normal life stress. And then we have our personal and professional stress. So this was probably a more complicated chapter because I think our emotional health and mental health is complex. And so our work plays into it. But what some people told me was like, there was a sense of

RMEP Podcast (23:07.246)

that they found through their vegan choice that helps through the ups and downs to kind of have this balance maybe. so, and it was often though with in conjunction with the holistic lifestyle that included things like exercise and working on our mental mindset kind of stuff as you were just describing. Yeah. And for me, the veganism and the playwriting were intimately connected because

I would get so many rejection letters that I had to be realistic how long it would take me to ever get a play on Broadway. And I realized I'm going to have to outlive these bastards. to go on the healthiest possible diet became absolutely necessary. And I'm still open to have that Broadway opening when I'm like 120, 130 years old.

Well, I would love to hear when you do. mean, good for you, though. That's amazing. You'll just be in your early hundreds. Well, so what was the next the next transformational change? It was being connected with a tribe of people that shared your values. And that, you know, for me personally, like.

I didn't know people all over the globe until I became vegan, you know, and then I was in these different networking groups and we would talk and like you share this core value. And a lot of people said that that was one of the things they found deeply fulfilling is just when you meet others like here, you and I are talking and we hadn't met before today. You feel this just immediate connection because of these shared values. And Zoom helps so much, doesn't it? It does. is one of the best things that was ever invented.

I have to say so. like, obviously these last five years, it's become much more a part of many of our lives. But yes, and in addition to, you what I included in the chapter about this connection with like hearted people was also that we have to learn thriving vegans learn how to navigate differences as well. So we, if those that were really thriving as vegans also were learning, how do I navigate family? How do I navigate?

RMEP Podcast (25:26.518)

social situations. So there was also this learning how to not only connect with people that share our values, which is an important part of thriving as a vegan, but also how do we get along with those in our life that aren't vegan and learn to communicate in better ways? So, yeah. All right. And what what number are we on now? I think we're on to six, six, seven. So six was one that you'll

probably resonate with a lot. And that was taking charge of your health, being empowered over your health. Absolutely. And from the way I was capturing it was that often we're taught there's not much we can do about our health, that it's just medicines, procedures, aging. You just can't do much. And then what people found on their plant-based vegan journeys was, especially if they went more in the whole food.

plant-based direction is that, wow, there's a lot I can do for my health. And I share the stories of several people that had amazing healings from things like cancer and some autoimmune diseases and heart disease, things like that. And the empowerment they felt from it, it's not just that they healed, which is amazing in and of itself, but that they felt an empowerment and that in itself is important.

That's why I wrote the book, Own Your Health. And to me, it's just so important that people take their health into their own hands. I wrote the book, I guess it was a few years after the big Obamacare debate. And I was so discouraged, I have to tell you, by the Obamacare debate. If you remember what an ugly time that was in American history where

So many people were protesting like their lives depended on it that we must not have Obamacare because there will be death panels. And on the other side, they were protesting furiously in favor of Obamacare because healthcare is a right and so forth. And regardless of what side you were on between those two sides.

RMEP Podcast (27:48.6)

From my point of view, they were all missing the big picture. Health is in our own hands, largely. Yes, people get bad luck. get a gene that's out of our control. But for the most part, it's in our own hands. And what I resented very much about the democratic approach was

Even though Obamacare turned out to be, I think, excellent health insurance reform, it had little or nothing to do with health. What I resented was that it was premised on the assumption that health is conferred by going to the doctor. And so what has happened is that since Obamacare passed, and it has been very popular because it was very good in health...

insurance reform. Since it was passed, when it was passed in, think it was 2010 or so, the obesity rate in America was 35%. And today it's 43 % or something. So people have had 20 to 30 million more Americans got access to healthcare, to health insurance.

Presumably gave them more of an opportunity to see the doctor. And that's a good thing, I guess. But meanwhile, they got fatter and sicker and longevity has gone down. So it has very, very little to do with health. On the list of things that affect health outcomes, access to medical care ranks pretty low. The first one is probably nutrition.

The second one is probably income. The third one is probably exercise. Things like that affect your health and the environment, the air you breathe. Whether or not you go to the doctor, you know, not such a major factor. And unfortunately, you know, most people aren't getting access to the kind of information that would empower them to make the kinds of changes you're mentioning.

RMEP Podcast (30:16.716)

We have to seek it out ourselves often and, you know, yeah, and try to find reputable places. But your book sounds like a great book for people to really dive deeper into this whole empowerment piece of it all. Right. I mean, when you realize that health is in your own hands and yes, look, seek out a plant based doctor, you know, seek out someone like Dr. Michael Clapper or any number of plant based doctors around the country.

to ask your questions to, to consult with. But the idea that you're just gonna, it's nothing you can do about your health. You just have to go to the doctor. That's wrong. It's the food most of all that will make you healthy or not. Yeah, very true. Yeah. And it had a personal relevance for me because, you know, I lost both parents from lifestyle related illnesses much sooner than I would have.

liked my mother from lung cancer and my father from complications of heart disease, cardiovascular disease. just for me, I think it has special relevance to do what I can for my own health and to avoid that as much as I can. Right. And my family, the men mainly died in their fifties from heart disease. And so when I was 17, I thought, well, if I eat the way these people do, I'm

a middle aged at 25. Why would I want to be middle aged at 25? It seemed to seem fool. So I certainly belong in that group. It feels empowered by taking control of my own health. And what was the next category? So this is the final one. And and this one, I you know, I'm not sure like if it was a majority, but it came up enough.

and not only in the checkoff questions that I asked, but also people's open-ended responses. And this had to do, it's sort of a spiritual category. It encompassed people feeling that they were more aligned with their spiritual values, that there was some spiritual deepening. And then for those that maybe didn't identify so much as spiritual, was this, and even for those that did, it was this interconnectedness, this idea like,

RMEP Podcast (32:40.044)

I hadn't realized before that I am so interconnected with nature, with all beings, and that like if I'm harming nature or other beings, I'm in a way harming myself. It's how I'm really one with all this bigger picture of this world that we live in. And sometimes this one is harder to define, but it came up so often and it's something that I hear spiritual teachers speak about.

And here it is coming out of the mouth of a lot of vegans. It's like, yeah, I'm really interconnected with other beings in nature in a way I hadn't fully connected with before. And for many seeing nature in a whole new way that when they go outside and they look at the trees and the birds, it's just, there's a greater openness and.

appreciation and awe maybe. So that was something that came up that not everybody experienced, but it was still frequent enough and transformative enough. It felt like it needed to be mentioned.

I completely understand that and I probably feel it, but I probably can't say anything about it. Yeah, it's a harder one to define. what I love is there's some really great stories and examples. just even to think of an example of how it was worded for some people like

One person said, for example, I feel more spiritual now that I don't have to take a life to live a life, to live, yeah, to live my life.

RMEP Podcast (34:19.35)

I feel more at ease with my choices and more in tune with the interconnectedness of everything. I'm eating more clean in alignment with my personal ethics of do no harm. So some of those kinds of statements, I'm more connected with nature as a whole and aware of my role on this planet, more peaceful, compassionate and empathic. So with all those seven beautiful transformations ahead of people as they

transformed to a vegan lifestyle. Why is it so darn hard to get people to make this switch? Even when they meet people like you and me who are happy to, you know, and fulfilled to be vegans, they seem like there's a reluctance there, like it'll be too tough for them to do it. I have my theory about what's holding them back, but what do you think it is?

Well, I love that you named that. mean, I think that's part of, know, certainly why any of us write our books, you know, probably why you've written some of your books touching on the environment and the health. And I think that's part of what led to mine is I knew a lot of spiritual, compassionate people who hadn't made this connection. And I was just curious what might help more people open to it. Because I do think

There is a misconception about veganism that it's depriving or restrictive. And what I've found personally, and many people I've interviewed and talked with find is that it actually opens your life up in so many ways. Not only food choices, that, wow, I'm eating so much more varied diet than I did before, but it's opened up my mind and my, and obviously my health is probably much better than it would have been. So why is it hard for people?

I think there's a combination of reasons. I mean, one relates to what I mentioned earlier is that we're all conditioned to eat this way from a very young age. And so when it's part of our upbringing, it's part of shared meals, it's part of traditions. And then, you know, not only was it part of our upbringing, it still continues to be so dominant in our culture.

RMEP Podcast (36:37.43)

I think it still takes a very committed person to break through that conditioning and the social messaging and social, quote unquote, norms around us. And I say, quote unquote, because just because something is a norm doesn't mean it's the right thing or it's healthy. We've had a lot of norms that are not good throughout history. So I think for it takes someone.

really being determined and having a strong motivation to break through all of that and to commit to doing something where you're still like you mentioned, we're the minority in my book, I put a stat of vegans being maybe 3 % of the population and probably the healthiest vegans that really eat whole food plant based. Maybe that's 1%. You know, those are my guesses too. So, you know, you're having to go against what

I, you know, the majority are doing and it takes you being willing to learn and, you know, gather information on your own. It takes you going to social events and being the only one eating the way you're eating sometimes. So I think it still takes a lot of determination and a strong motivation and a strong commitment that maybe is still hard for some people, especially because we are social creatures. And as much as we like to think we're individualists,

I had to face it in myself when I was making that transition to vegan, that part of me that just found it easier to go along with what was happening rather than to do what I knew was right. You know, so I come to the same conclusion. I think most people don't want to stand apart. Yeah, they want to be part of the group and not different from the group. Yeah. And they could even if they know it's better for their health, even if they, you know,

think about the animals or try not to think about the animals, even if they know about the environmental consequences of the meat industry, they still want to join the, you know, the bowling party that shares the pizza or the, you know, going out with a group of friends to a steakhouse or Thanksgiving dinner with the turkey. And they want to be part of that group, but they don't want to be the one who says, well,

RMEP Podcast (38:59.062)

Can I get a salad or can I get a baked potato or can I get a vegan pizza? They don't want to stand apart. I just never got that gene. I never got the gene for caring what other people think. So, you know, I don't give myself any praise here. I just never cared. Yeah. I don't know why that is. I hear that from a lot of vegans and I think

you know, there is a certain number of people that are exactly like you're describing it. Like, I just don't care what others think. Once I've come to this conclusion, I'm fine with it. And others of us fall maybe somewhere in between on the spectrum, you know, so. But what you're naming is so true. Like there's research that shows that when they interview or do surveys with former vegans, like the vast majority, the reason they didn't stay vegan was for those.

social reasons, not wanting to stand out or how do I navigate social situations? And honestly, for someone that's struggling with that, I'd say like, just even starting by moving in the direction of more plant-based would be a start because the more you start to see the benefits, then you're going to have that stronger motivation to then learn how can I handle these social situations that are more challenging. You know, for me, it was like just thinking through, well, what am I going to say to my

family or in-laws at this event to explain why I'm not eating this way anymore. And just prepare for it rather than being caught off guard when it happened. For someone like you, you might not need to prepare ahead, but for some of the rest of the people, just thinking through what you're gonna say ahead of time, that your health matters and your values matter.

Well, then let's move on to the optimistic thought. think you had this phrase in your book, thriving emotionally and socially as a vegan. So what helps people thrive emotionally and socially as a vegan? Yeah, that was important to include because just to what you and I are speaking about, because we are such social creatures.

RMEP Podcast (41:16.62)

If feathers are not on board with us, that can be hard. So the social part, think a few things. One is having a support network of other vegans helps a great deal. If you don't have that support network, it is a lot harder. You you, I know are well aware of the blue zones, you know, the areas in the world where people eat predominantly plant-based and have other healthy lifestyle.

factors and they live a lot longer and healthier than many of us do here in the US. Although one of them is Loma Linda, I guess, but yeah, like they are in an environment that supports their eating a certain way. Like they have a supportive environment, but many of us don't have that, you know, everybody's eating different. having that group of people that get why you're doing what you're doing and

who are there behind you, that's one. Joining vegan support groups, plant-based groups in your community, online, wherever. Another would be the being proactive. And this would be true of any lifestyle change. If we don't plan and we just kind of expect things to like... I know when I first traveled as a vegan, if I didn't bring food with me, I might not eat. So...

you know, the Happy Cow app, how many of us, you know, now learn to rely on things like that. So having your different tools and being proactive, not just waiting or not just showing up in an event and hoping there'll be food there that fits with your way of eating, you know, really reaching out to the host ahead of time or bringing food with you. So definitely being proactive. Another...

Two is for the social part is creating what you'd call vegan allies in your life. If your family or friends are not ready to go plant-based with you yet, at least ask them to be a support to you on your journey and specify what that means so that they don't undermine you by trying to pressure you to eat things you don't want. Maybe you're gonna have different cupboards in the kitchen with different food, talk it over and ask them.

RMEP Podcast (43:36.608)

explain why being vegan plant-based is important to you, what kind of support would be helpful so that, and a lot of times if you're asking them to support you, they're less defensive because you're not saying you need to change, even though you might wish they would. know, people have to change in their own way. so pressure doesn't usually make someone else change. But if you're asking for their help, they might be more supportive and maybe they'll learn a little bit that would help them change on their own time.

Those are a few of the social. what complicates that is we need to have a vegan transformation of the world tomorrow because of the climate. I know. Yeah, I'm with you. You know, when I started as a vegetarian at 17, the last thing I cared about was what other people ate. It made no difference to me. I was just doing it for my own health.

Then when I worked on Mad Cowboy with Howard Lyman, I started to learn about what the animal agriculture industry was doing to the environment. And then when I discovered that it's the leading cause of the climate emergency that we're facing, now it's a little harder for me to take the attitude of, in your own time. I totally get that. And yet, it's this.

paradox in a way. what I'm speaking to too is our family. You know, for most of us, they're not going to be the one we have the most impact on. So, you know, what you're speaking to is this larger transformation that we all want to see. you're saying we have the least impact on our own family? Many of us do. I would say a few people that I interviewed

their whole family went plant-based when they did and they like changed their health and everything was better. But that was only a few people. Like I would say the vast majority, we're almost the last, you know, I found this as just a psychologist working with general issues. Like people say, I tried to tell my husband this or that, but you know, he wouldn't listen. But when you said it, you know, it's like when we hear things from someone else, we're more likely to listen sometimes than our own families. Just this weird.

RMEP Podcast (46:01.612)

dynamic that happens that I can't really explain to you, we kind of- could be a book in there. Yeah, there could be. Why my family doesn't have credibility. You look properly. could be the next one. Yeah, definitely. I think as vegans, if we want to help change the world, start with the people that are open, because I think it is going to be that tipping point that's going to help more and more people.

change where then more and more people will be open because when it becomes easier and easier for more people, some of those harder nuts to crack will maybe go along. But in the meantime, I think it's starting with one thing I think about Glenn is the stages of change, which it's a psychological model, but it starts with pre-contemplation where you're not even thinking about a change, not open to it, to contemplation where like maybe, but I'm still ambivalent.

to preparation, I'm going for it, I'm laying the foundation to get ready to go, and then action, I'm doing it, and then maintenance, I'm keeping it going, I have my lifestyle set up to support it, and sometimes relapse falls in there where people have setbacks and hopefully they get back into action and maintenance again. So like if the person in your life is in pre-contemplation, like...

It's not to say you can't plant seeds, but you're not going to probably get that person to just jump right into a plant-based lifestyle. They're just not open. But there are a lot of people in contemplation or preparation that you could be helped moving along the continuum. So I'd say like, rather than wasting our energy with people that aren't open, start with those that are moving toward it. And those that don't seem open, might be. It doesn't mean you don't try. It's just that it might be a different time frame for them.

So it's just like, yeah, like I don't have the answer of how to do this because I'm with you. I the same thing. And yet I know psychologically that shaming or judging or pressure are not usually the tools. So it's just sort of how do we do it in a way that people are more open.

RMEP Podcast (48:08.922)

and you know, the same issue comes up with overweight. Nobody wants to shame people for being overweight. But on the other hand, if we normalize obesity and pretend that it isn't the cause of any number of diseases and health conditions, that doesn't really serve anybody's interest either. so that always becomes a touchy issue.

very, very difficult to navigate. Yeah. Yeah, that is that is a tough one. And, know, nobody's getting overweight on brown rice and broccoli. It's just not possible to do. Yeah. So hold up the book again, would you, Angela? The book is called The Vegan Transformation.

A Journey to Heal Yourself and the World. It will be available in bookstores and on Amazon. Is it available for pre-sale on Amazon now? Yeah, it is. Right now for pre-sale, it's only in paperback form. But once the date of the sale, the release, which is April 22nd, Earth Day, it will be available in ebook too. And then I hope soon in Audible. It's not there yet, but I hope that will also.

Becoming, but it's at all major online book sellers, you know, from Amazon to Barnes and Noble to bookshop. I think there's like several so good. And so it will be available around when this interview airs and it's if it isn't available yet when this airs, it's available on pre sale. So yes, definitely. Well, best of luck with the book. It was a pleasure getting to know you.

Yeah, thanks. It was a very engaging conversation. I enjoyed it. Thank you. Well, thank you. And we'll talk soon.